Pre-pandemic, 73 percent of US adults surveyed said they were interested in healthy eating, meditation, or fitness. Podcast guest Liz Mazzei is Marketing Director at Provenance Meals. Liz discusses how she has repositioned the Brooklyn-based farm-to-table meal company as a premium health and wellness brand. As Provenance launches nationally, Liz shares her insights about advertising reach and frequency – and reveals the one tactic she believes is essential for DTC success.

Episode Transcript

Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS:

Liz Mazzei: We began by defining the value proposition and target clientele for the company. I used transaction data, looked at testimonials and even the client service inquiries we received to understand that voice of the customer and what their real needs were.

Adrian Tennant: You’re listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising produced weekly by Bigeye. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, VP of Insights at Bigeye. An audience-focused, creative-driven, full-service advertising agency, we’re based in Orlando, Florida, but serve clients across the United States and beyond. Thank you for joining us. As we’ve discussed previously on this podcast, the COVID-19 pandemic has shaken up nearly every consumer category, influencing new behaviors, stifling entire industries, and inspiring growth in others. Last season, we examined the growth in telemedicine and illustrated some of the ways in which brands developed more empathetic messaging. A survey conducted by WSL strategic research in 2019, pre-pandemic, found that almost three-quarters of US adults, 73% were engaged in some aspects of living well from healthier eating and meditation to stress reduction and fitness. This trend has been accelerated by COVID, as our homes became sanctuaries with brands like Peloton and Lulu lemon benefiting directly. The last 12 months have also seen a surge in demand for organic and sustainable foods. With online retailers reporting the highest sales growth. Our guest this week leads marketing for a brand that sits at the intersection of the health and wellness industry and the organic sustainable food movement. Liz Mazzei is a full-stack growth marketer with 12 years of branding and digital marketing experience. Her career started in the San Francisco Bay area as a product analyst for an online advertising startup, responsible for managing the product timeline with a team of 10 plus engineers. She then moved to New York City to lead the sales and marketing efforts for a startup in the events and hospitality industry. A few years later, it was acquired by BizBash, the leading industry trade publication. Since then Liz gained experience as the marketing manager for a top recruiting firm on Wall Street, ran PR for the New York City restaurant association and owned her own consulting agency for startups and small businesses in the hospitality and food industry. Liz is now the Director of Marketing for Provenance Meals, executing a multichannel growth marketing strategy for the company. Liz is joining us today from her home office in Los Angeles. Liz, welcome to IN CLEAR FOCUS!

Liz Mazzei: Thank you for having me.

Adrian Tennant: So firstly, can you tell us what Provenance Meals is and a little bit about its founding story?

Liz Mazzei: Yes, Provenance Meals is a women-owned and operated business. We’re on a mission to help people look and feel their best with organic prepared meals delivered straight to your door. Everything is ready to eat. There’s no cooking required. And we use only the highest quality ingredients combined in really interesting and super delicious ways. The business started back in 2012 with our founder, Caroll Lee. She had a health coaching practice and she was recommending recipes and meal plans to her clients to help them reduce their weight, increase their energy, and overall really transform their health through the power of nutrition. And as long as she was actively coaching them and supplying them with guidance on what food to eat, they were very successful at reaching their goals. But when she stopped coaching them and they stopped eating the nutrient-dense food, they would quickly go back to those unhealthy routines because it was just too difficult to eat well on a consistent basis. And that’s how Provenance was born. The number one request she received was, “I know what I’m supposed to eat, but I just can’t find the time to go shopping and cook all week long.” We have to make time for exercise. We have to make time for meditation. But food is especially challenging because it’s three times a day, every day of the week. And if you’re feeding a family or you have a partner and spouse, it just makes it that much more complicated. So we realized that by providing these convenient meals prepared in really great ways with amazing ingredients, Caroll could help her clients get on that path towards health and longevity. You know, we really believe the fastest way from point A to B in your wellness journey is the food you eat. And it really is the best kind of health and preventative care. We make it easy to eat healthy in general.

Adrian Tennant: So how many meals do you deliver each week?

Liz Mazzei: We started in 2012, and we’re now delivering thousands of meals each week and we’re really expanding rapidly.  Last year, during the pandemic, we started shipping our wellness products as well as a limited edition three-day meal program nationwide. And I’m very excited to share that we’re getting ready to launch our full meal delivery service in LA.

Adrian Tennant: What led you to your position as Director of Marketing with Provenance?

Liz Mazzei: My background spans many different verticals from events to finance, but I guess the common thread throughout all of my experience has been helping businesses define and really position their product in the market. I love the idea of consistency and focus and making things feel seamless across the entire experience. I owned my own consultancy that was focused on startups and small businesses. It was really about those companies that didn’t have the resources to hire a dedicated person but understood the power that marketing could bring to their business. So me and my team in my consultancy, we would act as our client’s entire marketing department, not only setting the strategy but also being extremely hands-on during the execution. And Provenance was one of my favorite clients. After two years of running their marketing department, as a consultant, I decided to go in-house with them and dedicate all of my time and energy to building their business. I just woke up one day and realized it was the only project I wanted to work on!  We really did some amazing things together in those early years. And I wanted to see how much farther we could push the brand and how much more we could grow in the marketplace.

Adrian Tennant: Well, the market for direct-to-consumer meal kits in the US is highly competitive. Yet the brand has carved out a very distinctive niche. What are the characteristics of a typical Provenance Meals customer?

Liz Mazzei: The Provenance Meals client really understands the importance of nutrition in their lives and not only about how they look and how they feel, but how they perform at work and how they show up for their friends and family. I really think our clients are also incredible foodies, just like our team. Living in large cities, we have access to so many amazing restaurants. So we all have a very refined palate and enjoy different flavors from cultures across the world. Other meal delivery and services and even meal kits, especially those claiming to be healthy, they offer really basic kind of chicken and broccoli dishes. And that is nothing like the Provenance Meals menu. At Provenance, we really focus on the quality of our ingredients, how taste and health shouldn’t really be mutually exclusive. Our food tastes incredible and there’s no sacrificing or feeling like you are denying yourself in order to meet your health goals. I think this really appeals to our target clientele.

Adrian Tennant: You mentioned that you were brought in to help redefine the Provenance brand. What was your starting point?

Liz Mazzei: Yes. When I started first working with Provenance as a consultant, we began by defining the value proposition and target clientele for the company. I used transaction data and also looked at testimonials and even the client service inquiries we received to understand that voice of the customer and what their real needs were.  In addition, we did a competitive analysis to help identify any opportunity gaps in the marketplace and understand how Provenance is technical expertise really differentiated us in what we could offer.

Adrian Tennant: So armed with the data. How did you go about reorienting the brand?

Liz Mazzei: Well, our first step was putting together a roadmap for marketing and our product to keep us on track with the goals that we wanted to accomplish. We looked at a three-, 6-, 12- and 24-month period and plan. We then began to narrow the scope of our product and updated our brand messaging to speak directly to our target audience and focus really on the benefits instead of the actual product features.  It took about three months, but during that period, we refreshed the entire look and feel of the brand. It was really a farm-to-table, rustic personality and it transformed into the modern wellness brand you see today. In that three-month period, we refresh not only the logo, but all the product photography, the website design, our social media strategy, our email communications, and even, you know, looking at the tone and voice of how we were responding to clients’ inquiries.

Adrian Tennant: Now you mentioned that Provenance is going to be launching in Los Angeles. Why Los Angeles?

Liz Mazzei: Well, our business is really positioned at the intersection of the prepared meals industry, so ready-to-eat food, no cooking required, and the health and wellness industry. And we believe the LA market is really right for our business. It was ranked one of the 10 strongest wellness markets in America – I think it was by Mind Body Business and competition in that area is really smaller mom and pop operations. But we really feel there has yet to be a brand that has emerged to capture the attention of those health-conscious, busy Angelenos that are looking for organic, local, sustainable meal delivery and cleanse programs delivered to their door. Our strategy for the LA launch is already in development.  It will include a robust paid social and PR campaign. We’re also doing a combination of influencer and partnership activations, and similar to New York City, we plan to leverage those relationships we built, with the community of functional medicine, practitioners, doctors, nutritionists, health coaches, as well as those like-minded brands in clean beauty, fitness, and even sustainable fashion to help us spread the word. We love collaborating with other brands. And we really are focused on launching in LA and then we will continue to add in new markets and since we’ll have two hubs on both coasts, it will be a great base from which to ship nationwide products.

Adrian Tennant: Provenance Meals delivers organic prepared meal plans and detox programs that are gluten-free, dairy-free, with no refined sugar. What’s the strategy behind this approach?

Liz Mazzei: Well, Adrian, there is a health crisis happening, and I really believe that food is a major component that is contributing to the rise in obesity, the rise in heart disease, et cetera. Practically all food that you see that is convenient and on shelves is processed. It has large amounts of corn and rice byproducts, has GMO ingredients, industrial vegetable oils, it’s junk. And I really think that the Industrial Revolution harmed us in that way as a society. You know, these large food companies really started innovating to make food that is addicted with so much salt and sugar. It’s harmed our health collectively. Thankfully, consumers are becoming more aware of this. I think that they are choosing what their fork and their dollars to buy organic and to demand better products and companies, you know, offering alternatives to processed foods. So our strategy is to provide a convenient food solution that will help our clients improve their health. All of our meals and programs, eliminate processed foods and potentially inflammatory ingredients like gluten, dairy, and sugar. And many of our programs also cut out corn, soy, and eggs as well. You know, eating in this anti-inflammatory elimination diet way, our clients can really start feeling the effects of this change in their diet very quickly. You know, if you’re used to eating a lot of processed foods and you start cutting that out, it’s dramatic the changes that can happen. So our approach marries convenience – no cooking, no shopping, everything is ready to eat, it shows up at your door, it’s very convenient – with the satisfaction of eating healthy. You know, traditionally I mentioned before healthy food does not taste good, tastes like cardboard. You think small portions and our food is going to be more the opposite. I think that is what keeps our clients ordering on a regular basis – is our food is extremely healthy. It is convenient and it tastes incredibly good.

Adrian Tennant: Liz, what does the new product development process look like? To what extent do you co-create or develop products with input from customers?

Liz Mazzei: Well, we love hearing from our clients and we regularly use their feedback to not only refine, but update our products, offer new products. We also look at order data,  and which programs were more popular or which dishes were more popular and performed really well on our menu. In our menu development process, our chefs work directly with our certified culinary nutrition experts, and they work on balancing flavors and nutritional profiles. They get a lot of inspiration from culinary traditions around the globe, as well as time-honored wellness practices, like Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine. They also experiment with a lot of innovative ingredients like kelp noodles. And I think this is what keeps our menu on that cutting edge, super-elevated, with a lot of unique flavors and that menu is seasonal. So it changes quite frequently. And I believe last time I checked every season had about a hundred dishes on it. And when developing new products or programs, it’s really a collaborative effort across departments. Our goals can range either from, you know, a feature enhancement or an experience enhancement to some kind of cost-saving, depending on the product. And we really had to look at what’s working and what’s not working and then improve it from there. And of course, we keep our pulse on overall industry trends as well that we see coming.

Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be right back after these messages.

Tim McCormack: I’m Tim McCormack, VP of Media and Analytics at Bigeye. Every week, IN CLEAR FOCUS addresses topics that impact our work as media professionals. At Bigeye, we always put audiences first. Knowing who we’re targeting – their attitudes, behaviors, and motivations – is the foundational step in our media planning process. For every engagement, we undertake research that yields actionable insights. These inform our media and analytics strategies – and ensure that we’re working in unison to deliver measurable results for our clients. If you’d like to know more about putting Bigeye’s audience-focused media and analytics to work for your brand, please contact us. Email info@bigeyeagency.com. Bigeye. Reaching the Right People, in the Right Place, at the Right Time.

Adrian Tennant: If you’d like to try Provenance’s organic prepared meal plans or detox programs that are gluten-free, dairy-free, with no refined sugar, Liz has arranged a special limited time offer for IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners. To receive $30 off your order of $75 or more, enter the code INCLEARFOCUS –  that’s all one word – at the checkout at ProvenanceMeals.com. And in case you missed it, we’ll repeat this info at the end of this episode.

Adrian Tennant:  Welcome back. I’m talking with Liz Mazzei,  Director of Marketing for the direct-to-consumer organic meal and detox program brand, Provenance. How far in advance do you typically have to plan and design to allow for sourcing ingredients, food, photography, and product descriptions?

Liz Mazzei: Well, we’ve been around for about nine years now, but we still have a very startup mentality. Our team is really small and nimble. We are able to move incredibly quickly and I’m sure the rest of my team would agree with me that we’d love to have more time in the process, but I like to remind myself and them, that “diamonds are made under pressure,” and we can do it! But as I mentioned, our menus plan seasonally, it incorporates new dishes as well as client favorite dishes from past years. And we’re currently working on a new process that will help us get dish details from the culinary and nutrition teams over to the marketing department so that we can describe the dish correctly so that we can get photos and have it live on our website more rapidly. And as I mentioned, with over a hundred dishes on each menu, it’s a ton to coordinate.

Adrian Tennant: Are there any special considerations for different types of food packaging or containers used for shipping directly to consumers?

Liz Mazzei: Yes, definitely. Our operation team spends a lot of time evaluating packaging options. We are committed at Provenance Meals to making our packaging as eco-friendly as possible, even though it may affect our bottom line. Some of the packaging we use is twenty-five to 30 percent more expensive than conventional materials, but we feel this is the cost of doing business responsibly. Most of our dishes are packed in compostable fiber containers. And even the lid, it looks plastic, but it’s made from a plant-based plastic that is compostable. Even our little dressing and sauce containers are compostable. But the challenge we face is balancing that sustainability and that commitment with security and making sure that, you know, the food arrives safely because spills and wasted food are not eco-friendly either. So anything that is more liquid, like a soup or a chia pudding or a beverage, we use these premium 100% BPA-free containers that are recyclable. And we also encourage our clients to reuse them for storage in their pantry, bathroom, office. They make great containers.

Adrian Tennant: What are some of the things you need to consider when photographing the food?

Liz Mazzei: I really care about all the little details because you know, over time those little details add up: every single one of those details contributes to your overall branding. I believe a company’s brand is just a pattern of behavior that communicates your values and establishes trust. So consistency is key. And my team might think I’m crazy, but I’ve developed a very specific creative direction and rules for our photoshoots. You know, certain ways that napkins can be folded or how silverware can be placed. But all of our food in the photos is a real, true reflection of the actual meals as well. I really work hard with the team to make sure that everything is represented correctly. You know, our chefs portion everything in the packaging for us, at the photoshoot as if it was getting sent to a client.  You know, garnishes and everything. And then we just transfer it over to a plate if it’s getting photographed on a plate or if it stays in the packaging. One of the other things we consider, and I mentioned package versus plated, you know, we’re not a meal kit, everything arrives completely prepared and you know, no cooking. So we try to show the food and the packaging about fifty percent of the time. Otherwise, people might think that they have to do work to enjoy that food!

Adrian Tennant: The COVID-19 pandemic created heightened concerns among consumers about self-care and preventative health. Has Provenance seen an uptick in sales since the outbreak of the coronavirus?

Liz Mazzei: Yeah, right when COVID 19 hit New York City in the spring of 2020, we realized quickly that we needed to pivot in order to continue meeting our community’s needs.  Many New Yorkers fled the city and went to family or friends’ houses or their second homes. So immediately we expanded our local courier zones from New York to include Connecticut, Westchester, and Long Island in order to follow those clients. And we saw demand really soar in those regions. And this led us to start beginning to ship nationwide as well. We introduced our new three-day program called “the feel-good fix” as well as  spun off our wellness shop, which is a curated selection of crave-able snacks and nutrient-dense pantry stables. Yeah, it’s been really amazing to see, you know, to serve clients across the country. I think I saw an order come in from  Shreveport, Louisiana, and it’s just great to see our brand expand in that way. And we’re excited to continue growing our nationwide logistics and product line. In general, you know, looking back to last year in the spring and summer, I think people really got how important self-care and preventative health is. You know, they say, “if you don’t have your health, you don’t have anything.” And I think that really started to hit home for a lot of our clients. And that made them want to take better care of themselves, you know, and follow a  diet plan that would boost their immunity and keep them well and safe overall. we put out a lot of content on the marketing side last year about how diet can affect your immune system and start to share more resources about, you know, supplements we recommend like vitamin D that could help bolster their immunity.

Adrian Tennant: Liz, have you seen any new customer behaviors emerge that you think will become part of our future normal?

Liz Mazzei: You know, the one trend that comes to mind immediately is concierge services.  You know, a technology that allows clients, the luxury of having someone at their fingertips to assist them throughout the week. And I think I used Siri yesterday, so I was asking her to call a restaurant and the restaurant wasn’t saved in my phone. She just figured out the number and rang it for me. It was wonderful. So I think similar to how you Siri or Alexa, you know, in this on-demand world we live in, I think that on-demand assistance is really going to grow. It’s just going to get smarter, you know, with AI and whatnot. And at Provenance, you know, we have a dedicated client services team and health coaches on staff that really help our clients in that way. Not only in choosing their meals, even setting up their programs but answering questions about their overall health. So I predict having concierge assistance will grow not only as an added service or feature in our product but across other companies as well.

Adrian Tennant: Let’s turn to marketing. What have been some of your most successful customer acquisition programs provenance to date?

Liz Mazzei: Online advertising has really been the most bang for the buck in terms of customer acquisition. You know, we do a lot of Instagram and Facebook ads. If I think about most successful, I really think I would say brand partnerships and relationships we built because they not only helped us build authority. But they also drove new customers. So early on, we were endorsed by Dr. Frank Lipman, the renowned functional medicine practitioner and doctor of many celebrities out in New York. And we’ve established a lot of relationships with nutritionists and health coaches that not only act as brand ambassadors but refer clients to us. So I think that the initial word-of-mouth traction we received really helped propel our business in the early days.

Adrian Tennant: So Liz, if you had zero budget or very close to nothing to spend on marketing, what would you not want to stop doing?

Liz Mazzei: I think the one thing I would do regardless of the budget that I have is sampling. I think getting your product in front of as many people as possible to actually try it is really important. And since we have a high-value product, you know, many influencers and partners will be okay with, just a trade or a barter, what people are now calling “an energy exchange” to try our product. And if you love it, all we ask is that you share either on social media,  your blog, or email. And I am so grateful to all those health professionals and influencers we’ve worked with that were open to supporting us in this way, because we have very little budget, and has really meant a lot to me in my team.

Adrian Tennant: Now, prior to Provenance, you held positions with non-DTC brands. Liz, what lessons did you learn from those experiences that you’ve applied at Provenance?

Liz Mazzei: The main lesson I’ve learned, I think, it’s all about striving for excellence and consistency. I really like to channel Steve Jobs sometimes and strive for excellence. And I think I’ve mentioned consistency many times already. So, you know, that’s important to me, but no matter what you do, you know, do it to the very best of your ability and do it in a way that is as consistent as possible. I also think that, you know, no matter the industry, no matter how you sell your product, you have to tell a really focused story. You have to relate to your target audience and clientele, but do it in a manner that gets to the point very quickly. People do not have time to read long sentences and paragraphs, you have to hit them at home right away.  And lastly, three is my magic number. I really believe that clients have to see or hear something three times in order for it to sink in and be remembered. And that doesn’t mean they have to see it three times in an email. It’s once email, once social, ones from their friends, but three times is my magic number.

Adrian Tennant: What’s the most important feature that you’re looking for when selecting an agency partner?

Liz Mazzei: Well, there are so many things that are important when selecting an agency partner. I think you know, first off, track record and having examples, you know, use cases is really important to show that, the agency can work for you. But the most important thing for me is creative. That is the one thing that we don’t have internally on our team. And I’ve worked with a number of different agencies in the past, and really believe the success or failure of that relationship really came back to their level of expertise and skill developing that creative. And when I say creative – you know, graphic design, copywriting, anything that, you know, puts that whole package together and really convinces a customer to get to know your brand and to buy it.

Adrian Tennant: Since you’ve mentioned the importance of being nimble as a small team, do you look for that same kind of flexibility from agencies that you’re considering working with?

Liz Mazzei: That’s a really good question. You know, everything we do, we try to do a very, you know, 360 comprehensive campaign. So, you know, it always involves email. It always involves social. It always involves some aspect of our website and we’ve looked at agencies a lot for that PR or for the online advertising components.

Adrian Tennant: Are you seeing the adoption of more agile project management coming from agencies, or do you feel you’re having to lead that?

Liz Mazzei: I do think that idea of sprints is correct.  Project management. I’ve seen both things happen where the agency gets frazzled and they’re like, no, we can’t possibly do that. And it happens all the time that I’ve seen other agencies really jump on board and adopt it and turn around things really quickly.  So I do think that project management style is changing and it should hopefully we’ll continue to even get faster turnaround.

Adrian Tennant: So Liz, what does the future look like for Provenance? Are there any future plans you feel comfortable sharing with us?

Liz Mazzei: I think the future is really bright for Provenance. We’re on track to launch our service in LA with more expansion of our nationwide products after that. We’re looking at a couple of culinary collaborations, which will be very exciting. And we also have a number of improvements to our tech that’s in progress, you know, trying to make that experience for clients from placing the orders to manage their account, you know, their notifications a lot more seamless, a lot easier to use. I’m also looking at our marketing tech stack and automation. I want to try to free up a lot of our internal team’s resources. But also at the same time help with targeting our campaigns and even reporting. I think that we have a lot that we could do on that side – integrating more tech.

Adrian Tennant: How do you keep up to date with the constantly evolving landscape of technology platforms and the digital tools that are available to DTC brand marketers?

Liz Mazzei: I feel Adrian, so overwhelmed with the amount of options available! I think this is such a good question because every time I evaluate a new solution, I get overwhelmed. And I think about this graphic, I think it was the MarTech landscape graphic from 2017  – four years ago, the graphic showed over 5,000 companies in different areas. You know, some that did reporting, some that did social, some that did email, et cetera. And I think that now, you know, that number has probably doubled. Hopefully, you know, maybe some of those didn’t make it, but for now, I really look to my colleagues, fellow marketing professionals for recommendations on platforms. I obviously read a lot of online reviews, but it is it’s extremely overwhelming and that is something I’m actively trying to start integrating for this year. So if you have any advice on how to navigate, and stay up to date, I am all ears.

Adrian Tennant: Okay. Some of our listeners may take you up on that Liz, so be careful what you ask for! What’s the most important research question facing you right now?

Liz Mazzei: Yeah, attribution really keeps me up at night. You know, our product is not an impulse buy. Clients typically browse our website or have, you know, five different touchpoints with our brand before they actually purchase. So I’d really love an easier solution that is easy to integrate. You know, I think that’s part of our challenge as a small company. We don’t have that huge tech team to actually integrate technology and learn how to use it and customize it, et cetera. So I love an easier solution to understand attribution. We’re currently using Google Analytics, but I just don’t think it’s telling the whole story of the customer’s experience and journey to purchase. And it could be because we didn’t set it up correctly. Could definitely be true. But I think that attribution, that is a topic that I think is really on a lot of marketers’ minds. 

Adrian Tennant: Liz, if IN CLEAR FOCUS, listeners want to learn more about Provenance Meals, where can they find you?

Liz Mazzei: Visit us online at ProvenanceMeals.com. We would love for you to experience our meals and discover that taste and feeling of true health. And listeners can receive $30 off their order of $75 or more with the limited-time promo code INCLEARFOCUS. So definitely check it out.

Adrian Tennant: Thank you, Liz. We will make sure that we put that on the transcript for this episode of the podcast. Liz, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much for being our guest this week on IN CLEAR FOCUS.

Liz Mazzei: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.

Adrian Tennant: Next time on IN CLEAR FOCUS:

Mitch Joel: Where do you feel your brand can both engage, connect, and have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it and stay at it? Because content building, audience building is not an advertisement. It’s a game of finding an audience and speaking to them in a very intimate, powerful, compelling, and consistent way.

Adrian Tennant: An interview with a digital marketing pioneer, best-selling author, and futurist Mitch Joel. That’s next week on IN CLEAR FOCUS. Thanks to my guest this week, Liz Mazzei, Director of Marketing for Provenance. You’ll find links to the resources we discussed and the special offer code on the IN CLEAR FOCUS page at bigeyeagency.com under “Insights”. Just click on the button marked “Podcast”. And if you’d like to ask about something you heard, have suggestions for a guest, or a topic you’d like us to cover, please email us at inclearfocus@bigeyeagency.com. We’d love to hear from you. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider following us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week, goodbye.