Frameworks and Models for Behavior Change with Chris Harvey of Activate Research

Guest Chris Harvey is the founder of Activate Research, based in the UK, and an expert in helping market researchers yield deeper consumer insights. Chris has developed research methods that leverage consumer psychology and especially behavioral science to help better understand, predict, and influence target audience behaviors. He shares some of his favorite models and frameworks that can help researchers look for new ways to understand – and change – consumer behaviors.

Episode Transcript

Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS: 

Chris Harvey: There’s quite a lot of academic evidence out there that says if we take this more evidence-based approach rather than what we think should work, or possibly what research respondents tell us will work to change their behavior, we can increase our odds of achieving successful change.

Adrian Tennant: You are listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising produced weekly by Bigeye, a strategy-led, full-service creative agency, growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us. Traditional market research methods such as quantitative surveys or qualitative focus groups can be effective tools for gathering data about consumer attitudes and behaviors. But if your goal is to use research to inform marketing strategies that will result in lasting changes to consumer behavior, well, traditional research methods do have their limitations. One challenge is that research methods only usually capture data that the respondents or participants self-report. That data can be subject to biases, often subconscious, so people may not always accurately report their true attitudes or behaviors. And since most people don’t have degrees in psychology, they may not fully understand the reasons or deep-seated motivations behind their actions, or just as importantly, lack of actions. And of course, people often behave differently in the real world compared to how they respond to survey or focus group questions. So how can we gain a more complete understanding of consumer attitudes and behaviors? It’s an enduring topic, not just for researchers, but for anyone responsible for influencing public opinion or trying to guide people to make financial or health decisions that will be in their best interests. Today it’s my pleasure to be joined by a researcher suggesting new approaches to tackle the limitations of traditional research. Chris Harvey is the founder of Activate Research, an independent research consultancy based in the UK. Chris is an expert in helping client-side and agency-side market researchers yield deeper insights. Chris has developed methodologies that leverage consumer psychology and especially behavioral science to help better understand, predict, and influence target audience behaviors. Chris has approaching two decades of experience in the research industry, working for agencies, including Dunnhumby, GfK, and YouGov. Chris is also a noted industry thought leader, writing several papers exploring the practical application of behavioral science in market research. To discuss his work and share a preview of his most recent publication, Chris is joining us today from Fleet in the County of Hampshire, England. Chris, welcome to IN CLEAR FOCUS!

Chris Harvey: Thanks, Adrian. Thanks for having me on. 

Adrian Tennant: Chris, as I mentioned in the intro, you’ve worked in the market research industry for quite a while. How did you enter the profession? 

Chris Harvey: I came in through probably quite a different route to most people. So I actually came in through the data science route, so, many years ago, I worked for a few years for a company called Dunnhumby, who I’m sure many of your listeners are aware of. and prior to that, my degree at university had been in maths, and so it just felt like both an interesting area, but also a very applicable area to apply those math skills to understanding the shopping behavior of what at the time was, around about 15 million Tesco supermarket Club Card loyalty scheme holders. So yeah, that was the route in. And I guess since then I’ve branched out to, most of the time since then, actually more traditional quantitative and qualitative research. But I’ve always held onto that keen interest in behavior that came from Dunnhumby really. Whereas, it’s all about what people do, which is not necessarily what they say they do.

Adrian Tennant: Today, you lead your consultancy, Activate Research. What types of projects do you typically undertake for your clients? 

Chris Harvey: Everything we do is all about behaviors. So we typically work in either understanding behaviors as deeply as possible, we do a lot of work in predicting likely behaviors, and then a lot of work in trying to help clients to change stakeholders’ behavior, whether that’s customers or anybody else. So a typical project is probably, where a client has maybe quite recently launched a new product or service or is about to launch or it is developing one. And they want to know things like, for example, you know, what’s the current buying process or decision-making process with regards to typical customers in this area at the moment. Perhaps, can we get some feedback on what potential consumers think of our new product or service? And as I say, also, what are some of the types of things we can do to help to increase uptake of this new product? So that’s the fairly typical project and I should probably say, we work quite evenly really across qual and quant as well. So this is not limited to one or the other.

Adrian Tennant: Activate Research focuses on behavioral science. For listeners who may be unfamiliar with the term, could you define behavioral science

Chris Harvey: Yeah, it’s a very good question. I guess I like to try and keep things as simple as I can. And so the definition I like to use for behavioral science, Is the understanding of why people do what they do. 

Adrian Tennant: How does behavioral science differ from behavioral economics? 

Chris Harvey: I actually tend to use that same definition for both. But in behavioral economics, the variety of scenarios that we are dealing with are more narrow. So as we can guess from the description, behavioral economics, it’s typically around understanding economic decision-making, whereas behavioral science is much more broad than that. I mean, of course there are some overlaps between the two. Both of them draw on different areas of psychology, such as, for example, cognitive psychology. But as I say, in order to try and keep things as simple as possible. What I generally tend to encourage people to think of is behavioral economics as a subset within behavioral science with both of those being about trying to best understand why people do what they do. 

Adrian Tennant: How did you become so interested in this branch of psychology?

Chris Harvey: There’s a bit of a story behind that. So around about 10, or a bit more than 10 years ago, the agency I was working for, we won a really interesting and quite big project helping to do research for a major global, sporting event that was going to take place in the UK, and it was all good. I guess the catch of the situation was that my agency was commissioned to do the quant, or the quantitative research, and a different agency was commissioned to do the qualitative research. To cut a long story short, we arrived at the first kickoff meeting. So there was the client, there was our agency and the other agency all in the room. And within five or 10 minutes of the kickoff meeting starting, one guy in particular from the other qualitative agency had already torn apart our entire quantitative research proposal. All sorts of questions around, you know, how do you know who these people on your panel are? How do you know they’ll answer the questions honestly and accurately? And all these kinds of questions. And we came out in the meeting and, about five or 10 minutes later, we got a call from the client and effectively they said, “we were so appalled at this guy’s behavior in this meeting that actually, we’re booting them off the project and we’re gonna give you both the qualitative and the quantitative aspects of the project.” So that all worked out quite well. But a couple of days later, I sat down and I thought, “that was really odd. I’ve never been in a meeting like that. Why was this guy behaving like that?” And I checked out his website, and his take on research or his approach to research was very driven and influenced by psychology. And actually, once I’d read some of the stuff on his website and indeed a book that he’d written as well, I came to see that many of the points he was making this meeting were actually really quite valid. And I guess that was the first time when I started to think, “Hang on a minute. Maybe we shouldn’t necessarily completely take market research respondents at face value all the time. You know, maybe there is something deeper to this behavior thing.” And I guess that  started me off on reading various other books by Daniel Kahneman and Nudge, and all these kinds of books. And then also ended up doing a Master’s in behavioral science, and then subsequently setting up Activate Research after that.

Adrian Tennant: Chris, was there a singular Aha! moment, when you thought, “This is what’s missing from market research,” or is it something that came to you over time?

Chris Harvey: I’d say more of a series of mini Aha! moments. As I say, that meeting and the fallout from that meeting started me off on this  journey of really educating myself and throughout various books that I’ve read in studying and I’ve done, I’ve come across a series of different, as I say, mini Aha!s really, and I think a lot of them focus on a key insight which is that I think in market research a lot of the time, not all the time, a lot of the time we fall victim to asking too much of respondents. I think you mentioned something in your introduction about how market research respondents are not always necessarily aware or able to articulate everything that’s driving their behavior or indeed not driving their behavior. And I think you’re absolutely right, and I think, if we talk about what’s missing from market research, I think a lot of the time it’s this awareness that market research respondents can’t necessarily take us to all the answers. And we should try not to overly rely on them. As I say, I think if there’s an insight of what’s missing from market research, it’s sometimes a lack of awareness as to the limits of what respondents are able to help us with. But also to some degree, a lack of awareness of what some of the different techniques that myself and many others are using to try and ensure that we don’t have to overly rely on respondents.

Adrian Tennant: So what are some ways that you help your clients integrate behavioral science into market research studies? 

Chris Harvey: So we have three different, broad approaches, or areas that we draw on. And again, as I say, this is both across qualitative and quantitative research and each of these three areas we use them on their own or a lot of the time, in combination with each other. so the first of the three we use is, we talked briefly about, behavioral economics. So this thing about understanding more deeply, people’s economic decision-making and behavior. I think probably many of your listeners will be aware of terms like heuristics, so mental shortcuts that people often use to minimize complexity. They may be also aware of the term cognitive bias as well, which is where some of these mental shortcuts we use can occasionally lead us astray. So incorporation of behavioral economics, insights and approaches is the first of the three areas we use. The second of the three areas we use is personality psychology. So this is about how if we can get a deep understanding of how people are, as people, in any situation that can sometimes open the door to us to insights, as to why they’re behaving as they do in specific situations. And then last but not least, we do probably the most work actually in academic behavior change models. So this is all about how, we can use academic behavior change models first of all to, help facilitate a very deep and broad, understanding of what the current behavioral drivers and barriers are in a particular situation, but secondary, so we can use those insights to go on to tell people what are some proven, behavior change methods that feed off the back of these models that we can use to change behavior. As I say, often without necessarily having to rely on market research respondents to tell us what it would take in order to get them to do a behavior. So yeah, that’s the three key areas I say across qual and quant and sometimes in combination with each other, sometimes in isolation.

Adrian Tennant: Chris, what is it about behavior change that most interests you? 

Chris Harvey: I guess a few things really. I think, throughout my time in market research, I’ve always been most interested in those projects where we want to make changes or we want to do a campaign, or we want to make recommendations off the back of it. I’ve always tried to steer myself more towards those types of projects than the more backward-looking evaluations or the more, “let’s do a few stats for PR purposes,” type of projects. So that’s one area in terms of my interests, really, and within behavior change there’s a lot of very interesting research, academic research out there. And indeed a lot of very robust academic research, which is not something you can always say for all branches of psychology and some of the other social sciences. So there’s a lot to draw on there as well. And the last reason why I’m particularly interested in the change area, is from a commercial perspective, there’s not actually a huge amount of agencies out there that are taking what I would describe as an evidence-led approach to behavior change. A lot of the time it is, for example, what do research respondents say it would take to change their behavior? Or what do we think, using our common sense, what do we think we should do? And so commercially that, as I say, more evidence-led approach to behavior change has been quite successful for me as well. 

Adrian Tennant: Okay, but isn’t behavior change just about providing people with the most relevant or persuasive information? 

Chris Harvey: That’s a good question. I think if you asked most people in the street or indeed most market research respondents, I think they would say, “yes, it is, gimme some information, make it persuasive, emotive, et cetera, et cetera. And sure, I’ll change my mind, I’ll change my behaviors.” But I guess that’s coming back to this point again about how we’re not always completely aware of what it would take to drive our behavior in a particular situation. One of the examples I often draw on in this challenge in many, many countries now of obesity and how one of the sorts of key tools the decision or policymakers and governments have used is an encouragement of, “let’s provide people with more information, for example, about how many calories are in this particular product in this cafe.” so, in the UK I think last year there was some legislation where many cafes and restaurants over a certain size had to publicly say on their menus, the number of calories in each of their food items. The logic being that people will see this, digest it, and then change their behavior. And of course, the problem is that this isn’t usually what happens. Sometimes people do notice the information, sometimes, within the first week or two they might try and take a healthier option. But most academic research shows that over time, or pretty much over a very short amount of time, people will start ignoring this information and revert back to their existing ways of doing things. And for me, that’s quite a nice example of something that sounds very logical: “provide me with more information and I’ll change my views and I’ll change my behavior.” And actually, the majority, certainly not all the time, but the majority of the time the evidence is against that. And this is the thing you can often hear from market research respondents. If you ask them that question, “Just give me a bit more information. I’ll digest it, and I’ll change my behavior.” It’s very compelling. It’s very tempting to take that as a recommendation and take it back to the client. Whereas, as I say, not all of the time, but a lot of the time, it will be a bit more complicated than simply providing people with that pertinent information.

Adrian Tennant: Okay, if behavior change is more challenging than that, is there anything we can do to improve the chances of success?

Chris Harvey: Yeah. So this is where the behavioral frameworks and models guide that you briefly mentioned earlier comes in. And in a nutshell, you know, there’s quite a lot of academic evidence out there that says if we take this more evidence-based approach rather than what we think should work, or possibly what research respondents tell us will work to change their behavior, we can increase our odds of achieving successful change. And there are many different frameworks and models out there, which we can draw on. The guide that I’m bringing out, shortly, touches on four particular ones. But as I said, there’s many more out there that we could use to our advantage.

Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. 

Adrian Tennant: Each month in partnership with our friends at Kogan Page, the Bigeye Book Club features interviews with authors who are experts in consumer research, retail, and branding. Our featured book for January is Katie King’s book, AI Strategy for Sales and Marketing, connecting Marketing, sales, and Customer Experience. IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners can save 25 percent on a print or electronic version of Katie’s book with the exclusive promo code BIGEYE25. This code is valid for all products and pre-orders, and applies to Kogan Page’s free paperback and e-book bundle offer. When you order direct from Kogan Page, shipping is always free to the US and UK, and it helps the authors too. So to order your copy of AI Strategy for Sales and Marketing, go to That’s K O G A N P A G E, dot com. 

Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. I’m talking with Chris Harvey, the founder of Activate Research and author of a new free guide to frameworks and models to help drive behavior change. Chris, let’s turn to what readers will find in your newest publication. Let’s start with frameworks. What are they and how can researchers benefit from using them? 

Chris Harvey: So frameworks are really quite simple. Frameworks essentially provide us with a number of options, of things we might do in order to increase the likelihood of successfully changing other people’s behaviors. So to give you an example, here in the UK, The Behavioral Insights Team, which used to be part of the UK government, around about a decade ago, came up with one of the first more simple user-friendly frameworks. and it was called the EAST Framework, so E-A-S-T, and each of the letters within the EAST framework represents something that somebody designing communications or interventions can do in order to increase their chances of that intervention or comms being successful. So for example, the S within the EAST framework stands for Social. So this is all about this insight: we often follow the flock, and so if we tell people what other people are exhibiting good behaviors in this situation, that’s more likely to make us copy those behaviors. So, much of the research, for example, in this area is around things like encouraging people to pay their tax return on time. So for example, a messaging that most people within your particular town pay their taxes on time has been shown to be more successful than a generic, “Here’s your tax bill, please pay on time” message. So it’s quite a nice and simple way of coming up with, ways that we can try and change people’s behaviors, which again, are not necessarily the most obvious things are not necessarily the things that market research respondents, again, would necessarily come up with if we asked them what would it take to change your behavior? So as I say, there’s quite a few of these types of frameworks out there and they can be quite straightforward to apply as well.

Adrian Tennant: Chris, you make frameworks sound very easy to use yet with the potential to be very powerful if used appropriately. How common is the use of frameworks in market research, would you say?

Chris Harvey: I would say formerly, not particularly common. Although having said that, particularly with the quite big interest in behavioral economics over the last 10 years or so, I would say informally some people probably are using some of these kinds of techniques that they may have read about in more mainstream books, such as the use of social norms or social proof; what other people are doing to encourage that behavior. But overall I probably would say that, in general, not a huge amount of awareness or use of these types of frameworks. I guess the one thing I would also caution against a little bit on frameworks is choosing the most appropriate framework for the particular question you are trying to solve. So I think it’s one thing, it’s great to get people aware of frameworks, but at the same time, some of them are not always particularly well suited to every single type of behavior change challenge you might be trying to tackle. So for example, the EAST framework is great. It’s very simple to get your head around. but things like, for example, saying what other people do in a particular situation to encourage you to do that, they can tend to be more successful for slightly more simpler, one-off behaviors such as, for example, paying a tax bill, getting a vaccination, those types of things. They may not be as directly transferable and relevant to, for example, more complex behavior or entrenched behaviors that you need to keep repeating, changing, and then repeating over time. So I guess very valuable. But with that caution of, make sure you use the right one effectively. 

Adrian Tennant: Chris, If anyone listening is just starting out in market research, frameworks could be a bit intimidating. Are there alternatives to using frameworks and if so, what are their benefits? 

Chris Harvey: I guess the big alternative really, and actually the one that at Activate Research we use a lot more than frameworks is actually, behavioral models. So, a behavioral model is similar to a framework in the sense that it’s there to help you come up with suggestions of things you can do to change other people’s behavior. However, a model also takes a more research-informed view. It takes a more preliminary step before you get to these things you can do to change behavior. Models help you to develop and test hypotheses about the types of things that might be currently driving behavior or indeed be barriers to behavior. So models, whilst that makes it sound a bit more involved than frameworks actually, they’re probably in general better suited to research because they help us to do that first stage of, let’s make sure we cover all bases in terms of the research of what types of things could be driving behavior or stopping behavior. But then they also allow us to go to this second stage of, and off the back of that here are a bunch of common things that academics have proven, have proved to be successful in tackling those types of barriers. So frameworks and models, I would say the second one, both useful, but as I say, models are more useful and more conducive to the research process if you’d like.

Adrian Tennant: We really appreciate practical examples on IN CLEAR FOCUS, so Chris, could you give us a real life commercial example of where you’ve used a behavioral model? 

Chris Harvey: Yeah, sure. So, I guess before I give the example, I need to just explain the model itself, but let me try and do that as briefly as possible. So, one model I use quite a lot of the time is called the COM-B model, which one or two listeners may be aware of. It was developed at University College London, in the UK, and it’s quite a simple but powerful model. So the COM-B model effectively says that in order for somebody to do a particular behavior, they need to have three things. They need to have the capability, which is the C. They need to have the opportunity, which is the O. And they need to have the motivation, which is the M. Only once you’ve got all three of those things, does that lead to doing the behavior. So just very briefly, so capability, is typically things like the physical capability or the psychological capability. So for example, have I got the requisite knowledge or the requisite skills, or the requisite physical stamina, to do the particular behavior that we’re trying to encourage? So that’s the first thing. But capability on its own isn’t enough. We also need, opportunity to do it. So have I got for example, the necessary physical opportunity, which is things like the necessary time to do that behavior, the necessary financial resources perhaps to do that behavior. And similarly have I got the necessary social opportunity? Is the environment that I’m operating in conducive to me doing this behavior? So we need capability, we need opportunity, but we also need motivation as well. So once we’ve got those first two things, we also need to make sure that we’ve got the requisite level of motivation to do that behavior at the particular time in question. So hopefully that makes sense. I guess the reason I’m explaining this is that, these types of models such as COM-B, they can be very useful to us in helping us to, as I say, to generate a range of different hypotheses about what may or may not be driving or indeed inhibiting the behavior we, we want to see. Is it capability related? Is it opportunity related? Is it motivation related? Or, is it perhaps a combination of the three? So to give you an example of where I use that, recently we were working with a pharmaceutical client and they’d fairly recently launched a new product and they wanted to know more about, first of all, what did we think the likely uptake or adoption amongst the physicians that it was aimed at would be, how successful would it be? and equally importantly, what were some of the types of things they could do to try and increase adoption? And so what we did is we used this model throughout the entire process, this COM-B model, and we came up with a three stage approach. So the first stage was to take actually a bunch of evidence that the client already had around the types of needs that physicians operating in this space had, with regards to new products. So what types of things did they need in order to consider or adopt new products? And what we did with those findings is we mapped those against each of these three key pillars, within the COM-B model. So, for example, when physicians had previously talked about needing certain amounts of knowledge in order to consider adopting a product that was classed as a capability, barrier, or influencer. So that was the first stage. The second stage of the project was a quantitative stage, to where we took a set of physicians who the product was aimed at, and we asked them to evaluate the product, on each of those different, key needs that the physicians had. and as I say, again, mapped against each of those three areas. So some needs were in the capability, some were under opportunity and some were under motivation. So for example, we found knowledge of a product, which sat under capability was indeed a key need of physicians. They wanted to fairly, understandably, feel knowledgeable about the product before they would consider prescribing it. so we came with a bunch of different gaps or deficits between what physicians needed from a new product and what this product was providing under each of those three key pillars. And then the last stage was, perhaps haven’t really got too much time to go to this in detail, but the COM-B model actually contains a second part to it, which contains, believe it or not, 93 different, what they call, potential behavior change techniques which are very specific tactics that can be used to address any barriers identified in those more preliminary stages. So the whole point of embedding this model throughout the process and saying which of these barriers sit under capability, opportunity, and motivation, is that you can then feed this through into these many different potential, behavior change techniques at the end. And so you are actually selecting things that are not only academically proven, but are mapped back to specific barriers that you’ve uncovered in the research that need to be rectified. So again, it’s coming back to this thing, as I keep saying of not necessarily relying on respondents to tell us 100%, the gospel of what it would take to change their behavior. It’s about taking what respondents tell us, but also complimenting that with additional knowledge.

Adrian Tennant: Chris, are there any other models that you found useful that listeners should be aware of? 

Chris Harvey: Yeah, as I say, I tend to be a big fan of this COM-B model. It’s pretty straightforward. But, there are many more out there. I guess when I tend to use other models, it’s perhaps in a very specific scenario. So for example, one model I use, or I use a slightly adapted version of it, is called the adoption of innovations model. So this is to help us understand a bit more the mechanics behind how and why people do or don’t adopt new products. So a model like that can help us, in a discussion guide or in a quantitative survey, to come up with questions that try to go beyond appeal, liking, and some of those types of, more common questions. And then at the end, we analyze the responses in the context of this model and try and work out, where are the gaps here? where are we gonna get the best value in terms of tackling some of the barriers that have been raised. So there’s lots and lots of others out there. Another one I sometimes use called technology acceptance model. So, as it sounds, that’s all about if there’s a piece of technology that people are wanting consumers to adopt or clients to adopt. This model is based on a lot of evidence that said, here are some factors that we know, or we feel we know, are going to be important in terms of whether this product gets adopted or not. So as I said, they provide a very good basis for coming up with questions that go a bit more beyond the obvious. And lastly, I’ve developed my own model as well for Activate Research which is called the ASEN model as well. So yeah, there’s lots out there. But as I say, it’s all about really knowing what’s out there, but then knowing which model is going to be the most appropriate for that behavior change challenge you are trying to tackle.

Adrian Tennant: It’s a fascinating approach equally relevant to those of us working in qualitative and quantitative market research. Finally, Chris, have you got any research tips for identifying how, when or where to apply behavior change frameworks and models? 

Chris Harvey: Yeah. So I guess a couple of things. I think the first thing is: it’s really about recognizing, as early as possible, when you have a project where there is going to be an element of wanting to understand and or change people’s behavior and to consider, adopting some kind of framework or model as early as possible. The way we work with clients is that it’s very much about getting involved either at the design or even at the proposal stage of a project and saying, you know, “look, we think this model” or sometimes, “these two or three models might actually be very suitable here. And so let’s build the discussion guide or elements of the discussion guide or questionnaire around this particular model.” As opposed to getting to the end of the analysis period and saying, “Okay. We’re not quite sure what we should do about behavior change recommendations. Let’s maybe try and throw in some sort of model here.” So it’s about recognizing when you are wanting to change behavior, and trying to build in a framework or model as early as possible into the process. And as I say, it’s also about trying to make sure you use that most appropriate model as well. You know I’ve talked obviously about the COM-B model. I talked earlier about the EAST model and there’s definitely a place for both of those, but it’s not necessarily about just saying, “Okay, we’ve identified this is gonna be a behavioral, quite complex behavioral challenge. Let’s use one of those two.” It’s about looking around for maybe there’ll be something that will be even better than one of those two.

Adrian Tennant: Chris, If IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners would like to know more about you and your work at Activate Research, where can they find you? 

Chris Harvey: So my website is definitely the best place to go, so So there’s quite a lot of information on there. So I talked about the behavioral frameworks and models guide that’s coming out in early February. So there’s that and actually, four other 30-page free documents that can be accessed through the website. But there are also lots of much shorter bite-size articles and so on and book recommendations. There’s lots and lots of free stuff. I’m obviously also on LinkedIn, so please get in touch, or follow my company page or personal page, or just get in touch with me directly if you want to know more.

Adrian Tennant: And we’ll be sure to include a link to your introductory guide in the transcript for this episode. Chris, thank you very much for being our guest this week on IN CLEAR FOCUS. 

Chris Harvey: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Adrian Tennant: Thanks to my guest this week, Chris Harvey, founder of Activate Research based in the UK. You’ll find a transcript of this episode with links to Chris’s guide to frameworks and models to help drive behavior change, as well as the other resources we discussed today on the IN CLEAR FOCUS page at Just select ‘Podcast’ from the menu. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider following us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for joining us for IN CLEAR FOCUS, produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week, goodbye.

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