Marketing Sustainability

Experts in sustainable development, retail, innovation, and consumer behavior explore the challenges and opportunities for marketing sustainability. We discuss topics including the shift to a purpose-driven economy, the advertising industry’s impact on carbon emissions, and ways in which brand marketers can influence eco-friendly consumer choices with verifiable claims. To receive a 25 percent discount on books published by Kogan Page, use promo code BIGEYE25 at

Episode Transcript

Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS: 

Renee Hartmann: Sustainability is becoming much more important to the consumer. the days of retailers and brands not thinking about sustainability at all are almost over

Marley Goldin: Deepening our commitment on an individual scale to sustainability can actually make a change over time. 

Rohit Bhargava: We could do exactly what you said, which is reverse some of the impact that’s happened on the environment 

Solitaire Townsend: We’ve now been given our marching orders by the climate scientists in terms of the role of our industry.

Adrian Tennant: You are listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising. Produced weekly by Bigeye, a strategy-led, full-service creative agency growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us. Here in the US, temperatures have been surging as greenhouse gasses trap heat in the atmosphere, and combine with effects from El Nino. We’ve also faced severe pollution caused by extensive wildfires in Canada, resulting in smoke-filled skies and air quality warnings. On July the fourth, global average temperatures reached a record high of 62.6 degrees Fahrenheit, that’s 17 degrees Celsius, making it the hottest day since record-keeping began in 1940. When it comes to tackling the climate crisis, survey data from Ipsos reveals that less than one-fifth of people worldwide believe humankind is capable of and committed to resolving climate change, just 17 percent. Our guest a few weeks ago was Solitaire Townsend, a sustainability expert, and the co-founder of the award-winning agency Futerra, which focuses on sustainable development. Solitaire believes we must shift our thinking on climate change from the context of fear and despair to one of hope, purpose, and confidence. And it’s a theme she explores in her book, The Solutionists: How Businesses Can Fix The Future, which was the Bigeye Book Club selection for June. I asked Solaire to explain what a Solutionist is.

Solitaire Townsend: A Solutionist is a solver of problems, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. I discovered the term, and I applied it to those of us who are working in this field because we didn’t have a collective noun. We were change-makers, or we were sustainability people, or we were social entrepreneurs, or we were just business people doing sustainability. But, there wasn’t a word that really summed up this huge growing thousands, if not millions, of business-minded, sustainability-focused, purposeful people who are out there using the power of the business sector to actually make a difference in the world. And so the word solutionist sort of sprung upon me, and I applied it to myself first to remind myself of every day what I’m supposed to be doing. So, as well as co-founder of Futerra, I’m Chief Solutionist. And before the book came out, I noticed there were about 11 other people using it on LinkedIn. So as a word, there’s about 11 other people using it. Now, post the book, there’s about 10 pages of people using it. There’s over a hundred people who are now using the term for themselves in terms of identifying as a solutionist.


Adrian Tennant: In today’s episode, we hear from past guests who might also be considered Solutionists. First, combining food ideas and tips for an attainable, eco-friendly lifestyle, Marley’s Menu is a web-based collection of recipes that promote sustainable living. It’s the brainchild of Marley Goldin, a mom, foodie, creator, and qualified environmental scientist. I asked Marley about her belief that people can live a modern lifestyle while still making sustainable choices.

Marley Goldin: Yeah. So what I really mean by modern lifestyle is kind of the convenience we’ve all really grown to, really have ingrained into our lifestyle. So, food is available to us regardless of its seasonality or its regionality. Or maybe single-use plastic that is targeted to be more convenient for the consumer. And, what I’ve found is that that modern lifestyle or that convenience that we’ve grown to know and love, doesn’t always go hand-in-hand with sustainability, and what that means is the idea of sustainability can sometimes be overwhelming to consumers. And I think because of that, a lot of people think, “Oh, I can’t make a difference” or “What I do doesn’t matter,” “What I do in my own household isn’t gonna really move the needle.” And I think it’s important for people to realize that yes, while we do need systemic change on a higher level, deepening our commitment on an individual scale to sustainability can actually make a change over time. It can make an impact. So what we’re doing, not only over time, can make an impact in our own individual lives, but it can also, you know, encourage other people around us to be more sustainable. And it can increase demand for more sustainable practices within corporations or within governance. So, what I mean by that is: Yes, it can be overwhelming, and yes, we do need change at a higher level, but that doesn’t mean that what we’re doing doesn’t matter in our own individual lives.

Adrian Tennant: So Marley, how can consumers be confident that the food they’re purchasing is from sustainable sources or ethically produced?

Marley Goldin: Mm-hmm. I think, what we’re touching on here is greenwashing, which is, you know, when marketers use buzzwords like “sustainably sourced” or “responsibly sourced,” “all-natural,” terms that aren’t necessarily regulated, so can be used by anyone without any evidence to back those claims up. And it’s used as a technique to sometimes over-exaggerate or even trick consumers into thinking that the practices that these brands are using are environmental friendly when they’re sometimes not. And, you know, that’s a problem because even people seeing like a green label or packaging with like a tree on it. Sometimes they just automatically assume that this is a safe choice in terms of sustainability. But, what people really need to realize is that these terms are not regulated at all. So I think the easiest way for consumers to be more confident that purchases they’re making align with their ethoses, I even do this at the store, like I’ll take my phone out and do a quick Google search of the brand. And if a brand is really sustainability-focused, oftentimes their website will have a whole page dedicated to sustainability and the practices and the steps they’re taking, the goals they have for sustainability. If you get a brand that just says sustainably sourced or all-natural and then you Google them and there’s nothing more on their website at all about those practices that actually give you proof that these are real things that they’re trying to make a difference on, you can safely assume this might be a way of the brand greenwashing. So aside from doing a quick Google search and doing your own little research, you can also look for a certification. So within food that would look something like a Rainforest Alliance certification, Fair Trade, in coffee and chocolate, you can look for UTZ certification, USDA Certified Organic, Non-GMO Project. When it comes to seafood, we have Marine Stewardship and Friend of the Sea, and these are all just certifications within food. So outside of food, other brands can have other green certifications, and if you’re interested in learning more about that, you can just do a quick Google search of green certifications for business, and you can see lists of different certifications that you can look for on different brands, and the process to getting certified is pretty rigorous. So if you’re seeing any of these certifications, you can feel confident that the brand is sustainability-focused. 


Adrian Tennant: Renee Hartman is the co-author of Next Generation Retail: How To Use New Technology To Innovate For The Future, our Bigeye Book Club Selection in March. I asked Renee about consumers’ post-COVID priorities.

Renee Hartmann: I think when you talk about the consumers and how things have changed, you know, the number one thing consumers are wanting products that are sustainable and they want the selling methods to be sustainable too. So sustainability is becoming much more important to the consumer, and we think the days of retailers and brands not thinking about sustainability at all are almost over, and consumers are really looking for that. 

Adrian Tennant: Well, sustainability is the focus of a chapter in Next Generation Retail, and you acknowledge that it can be daunting to navigate the sheer volume of issues that fall under the umbrella of sustainability. You also cite a statistic from which finds corporations that plan with climate change in mind secure an 18% higher return on investment than those that do not. Renee, what are some ways retailers can achieve more sustainable business practices?

Renee Hartmann: Yeah. I mean, you know, we talk about different ways that companies can look at sustainability and I think, one of the people that we interviewed through the book, his name was Andrew Sullivan, and he really made some good points. He kinda, he focuses on sustainability and his point is you have to look across every aspect of all of the business. It’s not just one person’s job, it’s not a sustainability officer’s job. It has to be something that goes back to the CEO and has to be infused throughout the organization. And so, we encourage everybody to look at all different aspects of it. So in the retail store, it could be everything from looking at the types of lights that you have in your retail environment. How can you make lower energy use? How can you reduce waste in your packaging? We talked to another interviewee who talked about automated checkout and how that freed up time from the checkout person to go out and do shopping, and then when you deliver it to the customer, you’re using routes that are using less energy. You’re using electric cars, things like that. So even everything down to, you know, delivery can become a more sustainable option. And then looking at the product, we always talk about looking at the product backwards, right? Look through the circular part of your supply chain. Would people wanna reuse the product? We’re seeing retailers all the time are actually starting their own areas for resale of products themselves. So people who have used the product and wanna sell it back, they’re actually creating marketplaces for that themselves. And of course, obviously going through the entire supply chain, right? In terms of, you know, how can you reduce waste, how can you reduce energy, how can you use better materials? We’re even seeing, we have a chapter in the book on blockchain, and we’re even seeing people use blockchain and sustainability efforts as well. So I think it’s really, you know, examining every single piece of the business and really just thinking through, how can everything be more sustainable? And then we always talk about reporting it, right? You know, one of the areas that we’ve talked about is some brands I think are a little bit shy to talk about their sustainability efforts because they’re worried about greenwashing, they’re worried about consumer backlash. But really, the more that you’re reporting to your employees, to your customers, to your suppliers, it keeps you accountable. And so really having these methods to track your sustainability efforts, and of course, nobody can get there overnight, but to have an ongoing vision and something that’s created from the top of the organization is really important. So, sustainability, one of the things that makes it so hard, I think, is that it really can be affected through every part of the organization. And it really does take, a sort of an organization-wide, real mandate to make it become a reality.


Adrian Tennant: So, how should companies design and develop sustainable products and services? Thomas Klaffke is the head of research for the Amsterdam-based firm, Trend Watching, leading the team responsible for mapping out global consumer trends and insights. I asked Thomas about the framework Trend Watching has developed to facilitate purpose-driven innovation.

Thomas Klaffke: Throughout the last couple of years, we’re seeing a move more towards what we call the purpose economy. To really, an economy that of businesses that solve the big problems that we have, and that’s why we call it purpose-driven innovation methodology. And the idea here is that you still have, on the one hand, three pillars that we look at. One is, as you were already saying, as a quite innovation lab is innovations. Then, we look at what we call basic human needs. So, what kind of basic human needs is this innovation really satisfying? Because it’s basic human needs are never changing. They’re quite certain, it’s something. So, as an example, you have, like, convenience there or safety. It’s very general kind of principles. And, the third pillar is drivers of change. So these big, major shifts that are happening like urbanization or climate change. So we bring these three things together: drivers of change, the innovations, and the basic human needs. And out of that, we look at what are some consumer expectations that are emerging from that. So for example, you could ask yourself like, “Okay, if consumers are using this product, or are seeing this ad, what would they expect from other companies after that? So, this is kind of the questions that we ask, and the new framework that we add to that is the impact bit, basically. And here, we’re using two kind-of things that are quite, one of them is quite known, which is the UN SDGs, UN Sustainable Development Goals. These 17 goals for sustainable development in the world that we’re using as basically like a purpose filter. So on the one hand, we are mostly looking at innovations that relate to these 17 UN SDGs, and are then looking at all of these other elements. And on the other hand, we also use another framework, called the eight sustainability principles. It’s from a bigger work of a Swedish scientist and sustainability expert called Karl Henrik Robert, which is called The Natural Step Framework, and he talks about these eight sustainability principles that are basically rules that you have to abide by in order to bring sustainable innovations to the market. And we use those basically as a filter when we teach our clients our methodology and when we go from looking at trends and turning them into innovations or into opportunities, and these principles are these rules. You could say, for example, don’t extract from the earth, don’t produce harmful substances, don’t recreate nature, don’t overwork people, everyone’s voice should matter, help people to self-develop, don’t discriminate, and celebrate diversity. Now of course, you won’t find a lot of innovations right now that really check all of those boxes, of course. Yeah, this is also not what we want to do. Like, we don’t want to completely say that we have these rules, we even have these SDGs and that’s where we should focus on totally. But, we’re using it more as like a mental exercise to think differently about what we’re doing and what the impact of our actions will have, and just doing that already helps you come up with, I think, more creative ideas also. But also, most importantly, ideas that are really fitting to I think today’s world into this purpose economy.


Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be right back after this message.

Each month in partnership with our friends at Kogan Page, the Bigeye Book Club features interviews with authors who are experts in consumer research, retail, and branding. Our featured book for July is Brand Strategy in Three Steps: A Purpose-Driven Approach to Branding by Jay Mandel. The book walks readers through a new way to build a meaningful and authentic brand strategy focused on identity, intention, and implementation. IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners can save 25% on a print or electronic version of this month’s featured book by using the exclusive promo code BIGEYE25. This code is valid for all Kogan Page products and pre-orders and applies to their free paperback and e-book bundle offer. Shipping is always free to the US and UK when you order direct from Kogan Page, and it helps the authors too. So to order your copy of Brand Strategy In Three Steps, go to

Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. You’re listening to a special episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS, exploring sustainability. Just before the break, we heard Thomas Klaffke from Trend Watching describe a framework for purpose-driven innovation. Sharing a background in consumer trend analysis, Rohit Bhargava is a serial entrepreneur and the bestselling author of nine books on marketing and innovation. Rohit joined us on the podcast to discuss his latest book, The Future Normal, a section of which focuses on how humanity will survive beyond the next decade. I asked Rohit if he saw ways to slow down or even reverse the current trajectory of climate change.

Rohit Bhargava: There are some. And, so some of the ideas that were presented in this third section of how humanity will survive need to be further future-ranging in terms of solar geoengineering, for example, where we’re looking at ways of cooling the earth artificially and all the ethical issues that come with that. There’s a great entrepreneurial company called Daily that makes shoes out of recycled bags and recycled plastic bottles. And I just got my pair that I ordered. It took a while to come, but now I just got my pair. And, so trying out a lot of those types of technologies that have potential farther into the future was really fascinating. One of the trends that we wrote about in this section specifically was what we called inhuman delivery, and that was an interesting exercise for us because it was basically about drone delivery, which is a topic that’s not necessarily new, although it’s not mainstream. I mean, most places don’t have drone delivery yet, but it has a lot of issues attached to it too. Do we really want all these drones flying around overhead, and you can picture the dystopian landscape of just walking down the street and having all these drones in all these places. But what was fascinating about this one is that I was, we started to look at the test cases of it. First of all, using a platform called What Three Words, which is a platform that allows you to map the entire grid of the earth into one cubic meter squares and give every one square meter space, a three word address. You could allow drones, for example, to deliver things to people who are standing in the middle of a forest or standing at a place that doesn’t have a physical street address. So that’s transformative to allow drones to deliver. But the huge opportunity is really to allow drones to deliver to places that are hard to deliver to. So we tend to think of innovation as, “Oh, it’s gonna happen in the city first. It’s gonna be like this urban thing first, and then the people in the country, the rural customers will be left behind.” And what was interesting about this one is that it was actually the reverse. The drone delivery may take off for rural environments much more quickly because it is the best option to be able to get delivery of packages to people in far flung areas, but also, essential medicines, vaccines, things that are difficult to transport in other ways might start happening through drone delivery. And obviously there’s more space out there as well. So you don’t have this issue of other things flying overhead or trying to navigate buildings or things like that, that make it difficult to enable this sort of delivery. So sometimes when we started looking at these innovations, what you think about innovation, the assumptions we make, “Oh, it’s gonna happen for this group of people first, and then these other group of people,” turn out to be exactly the opposite.

Adrian Tennant: Sustainability is a theme that appears several times in the pages of The Future Normal. What are some of the most interesting or inspiring examples for you?

Rohit Bhargava: You know, I would say that there’s a lot of talk about net zero, or like having zero impact. And the final chapter that we concluded the book with actually, was titled Beyond Net Zero. And the reason we called it Beyond Net Zero is because there’s some really interesting examples of companies looking at ways of creating things that have a net positive impact on the environment. So instead of just saying, “Oh, we didn’t have a negative impact, and we’re at zero, we’re indifferent.” What some of these companies are starting to say is, “Well, we could make the world better through the process of the work that we’re doing. Through the process of taking seaweed, for example, we can remove more carbon from the air and we can make the earth a better place.” And to me, like this idea of the climate positive vision as opposed to just do no harm, which has kind of become the standard, was really an interesting evolution because what it said is we could do exactly what you said, which is reverse some of the impact that’s happened on the environment by unlocking these new methods of making things, of making products, and of making them in a way that delivers a net positive to the earth.


Adrian Tennant: Returning to the role of marketing and its impact on carbon emissions, a typical online advertising campaign produces around 5.4 tons of CO2 equivalent, which is approximately one-third of the annual carbon footprint of an average American. Now this data is from the UK-based ad tech company, Good-Loop, which distributes ethical advertising in premium placements and allows consumers to make donations funded by the advertiser in return for watching ads. I asked Solitaire Townsend whether models like Good-Loop’s can be as effective in terms of reach and engagement compared to traditional models.

Solitaire Townsend: So I think what Good-Loop is doing is super fun and I really, really enjoy seeing the growth of what they do. But, I am gonna push back for a second. Because the impact of our industry actually isn’t the direct carbon impact of our adverts. If you are advertising through Google, if you are advertising through Facebook, if you’re advertising through Instagram, or on any of the major platforms. Actually, there isn’t a significant carbon footprint because all of those major platforms are already using renewable energy for their data centers. So a lot of hand wringing, which was very appropriate a couple of years ago isn’t really the case anymore. So, what I wouldn’t want anyone to do is to think that the footprint of our adverts are what matters. What matters is the brain print of the messaging within them. So whilst as every industry should, we need to clean up our house, and we should have probably cleaned up our house some time ago in terms of our own carbon footprint. That’s not what is called the material impact of our industry. The material impact of our industry is what we are asking consumers to do, not the carbon footprint of our adverts.


Adrian Tennant: Michael Smith is an applied cognitive neuroscientist and management professional with a deep interest in sustainability. He’s also the author of the book, Inspiring Green Consumer Choices: Leverage Neuroscience To Reshape Marketplace Behavior. I asked Michael what brand marketers need to do to encourage consumers to shop more green.

Michael E. Smith: Brand marketers need to make their sustainability claims more trustworthy and transparent if people are going to be more accepting of those claims. They also need to focus more on highlighting the immediate and concrete functional benefits of their products. And then more as a secondary consideration, focus on the more long-term and abstract environment mental benefits. Because at the end of the day, if we’re not getting our needs satisfied by a particular product or service, we will explore other ones. So, shoppers need to be convinced that whatever their primary need is be it taste or health or identifying something aesthetically pleasing, they’re not going to go after the secondary needs. Also, they need to ensure that their offering has some degree of mental and physical availability. Byron Sharp, in his book, How Brands Grow, emphasizes that having something top of mind as a brand and have it physically available where you’re shopping, are the keys to increasing sales and growth of your brand within the broader category, and this is as true for sustainable brands as it is for any other brand. And then, I think marketers really need to get comfortable with letting go of the notion that just because somebody filling out a survey says they’re willing to pay more for more sustainable products, doesn’t mean when the rubber hits the road, that that’s true. Some people can be distracted by a discount on a neighboring product that they find at the shelf. And many people, the majority of the population, really, especially these days, don’t have the resources to spend more money on fulfilling their product needs. And so, I think there needs to be a greater emphasis for marketers marketing more sustainable products to do everything they can to achieve price parity with the competition if they want to have more success in this sphere. 


Adrian Tennant: Our Bigeye Book Club Selection for May was Purposeful Brands: How Purpose And Sustainability Drive Brand Value And Positive Change, written by Sandy Skees. Reflecting there over three decades of expertise in management consulting and strategic communications, I asked Sandy about the challenges of communicating purpose and sustainability.

Sandy Skees: There are two things I want people to understand about communicating purpose and sustainability in all kinds of communications, from advertising and marketing through to corporate communications, all of it. The first is these are very complex dimensions of a business that require a whole range of communications across all of your owned, earned, and paid channels. There’s so much complexity in what a company is doing to reduce its carbon footprint, for example, or reduce its greenhouse gasses, improve the way it manages water, all those things. Highly complex. This isn’t just one report you’re gonna issue. You need to be communicating it over and over throughout the course of the year. Think about on-pack as a place to communicate those messages. Think about it on-shelf, on your website, on your socials. This is a complex story that needs lots of ways in, et cetera. The second thing I want you to know is that the language you use to tell the story runs the spectrum from highly technical, highly factual, extremely transparent, very detailed, and data driven all the way up to inspirational, aspirational, and visionary. A CSO that I’ve worked with who I love dearly who’s been a leader in this space for years, she said, “It’s up to us to set the highest order vision of the kind of world we want to create with our business. That we have to both set that vision and then explain in scientific terms how we’re gonna get there.” And that is a very interesting communications challenge. We need words that are aspirational and pulls people along with us as a business and a brand, and we need highly technical information so those who are trying to really understand the progress we’re making can find the facts in the things that we’re saying. 

Adrian Tennant: What advice would you give to other creative and communications professionals looking to make a positive impact on sustainability and climate action?

Sandy Skees: I think there’s a couple of ways. One is, in the way in which we depict people in commercials, in ads, in visuals. Can we have a recycling bin somewhere in the shot, for example? Can we have two people who are chatting instead of each holding a disposable coffee cup? Maybe one’s rinsing out the peanut butter jar to throw it into the recycling bin. Like, all those social cues that we as creators have access to. Yep, we can change behavior very subtly or using those subtle behavior cues, you know, in the shot and think about how do we do that? How can we use this commercial for, you know, hand soap? Maybe we show the person washing their hands and turning the tap off in between soaping up your hands, like it’s all those little behavior cues that will drive behavior change. So I think that’s number one. The second thing, and I actually said this, I was a guest speaker at a very large food and consumer goods packaging company. I was a guest speaker for their Earth Week all-hands employee kickoff, and what we were talking about was product innovation. Brand managers are always looking for, what’s the next product we’re gonna bring to market? We’ve got a budget, we’re in the innovation pipeline. We’re thinking about, you know, let’s go with a vanilla flavor this year. Let’s add vanilla. And my question to them was, “Hey, instead of a new flavor, how about using that capital and developing a bottle that’s based on bioplastics, not petroleum plastic?” Like, let’s let the innovation not necessarily just be one more SKU on the shelf, but improve the SKUs that we have. Or, if people are currently enjoying your products in a particular form factor now today, which involves packaging that they peel away and throw away, what might be an innovative way they could enjoy what you make in a completely different form factor that you haven’t thought about yet? That’s a product innovation and a marketing innovation that can have both social and environmental impact. Another is, are there swaths of the market that you’re leaving out? We were working with a yogurt company that was looking at places where there were food deserts, and a food desert is a place where communities that are economically challenged don’t have access to healthy foods. And so what they were looking for is, “How do we get our high-quality yogurt in convenience stores and bodegas and other places that are, that the choices for consumers are less?” So they had a product strategy that had a social dimension to it, and I think those are all ways that we, as marketers, communicators, brand strategists can use what we do. It’s how do we leverage our communications vehicles and platforms, and then how do we think about the products that we’re using? 


Adrian Tennant: As we’ve heard, there are many ways to join the ranks of the Solutionists. To conclude, let’s hear what Solitaire Townsend believes are the key contributions advertisers can make to reshaping public perception and encouraging more sustainable behaviors. 

Solitaire Townsend: Actually, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC – which some folks might have heard of, who are the sort of preeminent scientists around the world – every seven years they come up with a big report about what we need to do about climate change. And for the first time in 20 years, they actually included our industry in that, which is quite a big deal because that will trickle down through governments and will trickle down through regulation to us pretty quickly. There are two things that they said that they needed from us. One is they need us to not greenwash, to not support destructive industries, to not advertise the problem, and to avoid climate misinformation. And, that is a difficult and true challenge for the industry. On the other side, they said sustainable lifestyles. We are the people who can show that living in a more sustainable way, eating, traveling, clothing, buying in a more sustainable way is desirable. That’s what we are good at. And so there’s a whole chapter in the IPCC report that goes into how can we as marketers, for example, make plant-based eating much more desirable, help people to transition towards, electrifying everything in electric cars, help people desire different ways of consuming, particularly consuming better quality and less repairing of vintage. There’s a whole section in there around how we travel and making it so that people can feel that actually perhaps that they don’t need to take their car for a 15-minute trip, that they’d be able to walk for it. So they set out 61 behaviors that would make a significant difference to climate change. And they call upon us, the marketers and the influencers in the world, the people who affect society, to help make them desirable and to help change behaviors. And so, you know, we’ve now been given our marching orders by the climate scientists in terms of the role of our industry.

Adrian Tennant: Thanks to all the guests who contributed to IN CLEAR FOCUS. In this episode, you heard Solitaire Townsend, Marley Goldin, Renee Hartman, Thomas Klaffke, Rohit Bhargava, Michael Smith, and Sandy Skees. You’ll find links to these contributors’ details in the transcript for this episode on our webpage at – just select ‘podcast’ from the menu. And you can save 25 percent off print or electronic versions of the books by Solitaire, Renee, Michael, and Sandy when you order direct from Kogan Page. Use the promo code BIGEYE25 at the checkout. Thank you for listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week, goodbye.

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