Regenerative Futures with Gabby Morris

Gabby Morris is an award-winning designer whose work inspires change. Currently the Regenerative Futures lecturer at Glasgow School of Art, Gabby describes recent projects, including an immersive experience called “Dish the Dirt” and her Kickstarter “Grounded Wisdom,” a tarot-inspired card deck. Reflecting on her experiences, Gabby underscores the need for educational approaches that cultivate optimism, creativity, and systemic thinking for regenerative futures.

Episode Transcript

Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS, 

Gabby Morris: Creative thinking is probably one of the most important things for the next decade, of our planet, really, and we don’t value it enough. Often, creative solutions, systems thinking, connecting, zooming in and out, resilience, all of those things that I think you have if you go through a design education, is going to be really important.

Adrian Tennant: You’re listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on marketing and advertising produced weekly by Bigeye, a strategy-led full-service creative agency growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us. 

Over the past year, IN CLEAR FOCUS has featured several conversations with guests about sustainability and the roles that marketers, brands, and consumers can play in the transition to renewable sources of energy and less resource-intensive production methods. We’ve also discussed futures thinking and the evolution of design fiction, which explores possible future scenarios through designed artifacts or prototypes. Today’s guest is focused on exploring and shaping the future through creative practices centered on food systems, soil, and the environment. Gabby Morris is an award-winning designer whose work combines her expertise in geography, ecology, and design to inspire change. In addition to being a designer, Gabby is a systems thinker, experience creator, and educator, currently the Regenerative Futures lecturer at the Glasgow School of Art. Reflecting her multifaceted portfolio, a Kickstarter Gabby launched last year called Grounded Wisdom received almost seven times its target funding. To discuss this project and some of the philosophies that underpin her work, I’m delighted that Gabby is joining us today from Forres in Scotland. Gabby, welcome to IN CLEAR FOCUS.

Gabby Morris: Hi Adrian, thank you for having me. Super excited.

Adrian Tennant: Well, first of all, I’m guessing that most listeners will be unfamiliar with your location. Could you explain where you are – and why you’re there?

Gabby Morris: Yeah, sure. So I live in a place called Forres, which is on the sort of northeast coast of Scotland. so the sort of flat part of the top of Scotland that looks out over the water. Most people probably know it as the sort of whiskey region, so it’s the Speyside region. There are lots of Scottish whiskeys that come from here. We get quite a lot of people visiting from around the world for that reason. I’m actually here because I teach regenerative design and regenerative futures up on a campus. Here we, as part of the Glasgow School of Art, we have a sort of field station in the Highlands and that’s where I work.

Adrian Tennant: Gabby, you first went to college to study Human Geography and Anthropology, and then later studied Product Design at Glasgow School of Art. What originally sparked your interest in environmental issues and futures thinking?

Gabby Morris: Yeah, I did human geography and I think when I was 18 I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do. I wasn’t really aware of design or even sort of creativity. So I was very good at geography, and so I decided to go and study that at university. But actually, human geography has been an incredible foundation, really, because it’s not geology, it’s very much about sort of behaviors and cultures and agriculture and town planning and, why we live in this world as humans and sort of how people engage and experience the world and I’ve always been really fascinated by people. So actually, geography was a really nice fit in terms of that, but I ended up spending most of my time sort of reading library books that weren’t really on the curriculum and trying to understand concepts and ideas and things like that in the world. Anthropology is great for sort of understanding more of that stuff. I also did international relations. I did a module in international relations that hugely opened my eyes to the kind of movement of people and how countries, rather than just people sort of interact with each other. But education wasn’t for me at that age, and I ended up doing two years of that, and I felt a bit stifled, I guess, by the idea of sort of writing and responding to other people’s thoughts. And so I actually left and I went into industry, so I worked in various industries: the NHS here in the UK, food manufacturers, looking at sort of IT systems and products and how people experience their services. And that was kind of eye-opening for me, but then I really started to yearn for that creative side. And I think when I went to school, people didn’t talk about the fact that you could do both. You could be creative, but you could also be academic, and we were kind of siphoned off into different parts. And I think, really in my 20s, I started to feel like I wanted to be more creative. So, I went back to university to study product design. I think it was there really that I started to think about the future and started to think about challenging it, I guess. I’ve always been the kid that asked why and I think I still am the adult that asks why. And I think For me, going to the School of Art was just this incredible, safe, engaging space to be creative and unleash that. And I started to really think about futures in terms of “what if the world was different” and “what do we want the world to be like” and exploring the mix of art and design. Being creative and being logical and being experiential with ideas. Lots of people talk about Philip K. Dick as the sort of writing that maybe challenged what they thought or was the sort of foundation for their childhood, but I really think mine was probably Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I think it was a pivotal moment for me that, I still have a wonker mindset, I guess. [laughs] I believe in a world of, imagination and changing the world and making it sort of delightful and joyful and unexpected and getting people to think about how we might understand what that looks like and how we might get there and that’s kind of where I started to, I guess, think more about futures thinking and environments and now I really dip a lot more actually into geography than I ever thought I would. I kind of left it behind for a while. And now I find myself, especially when I’m teaching, looking back at lots of that stuff that I learn and even referencing people who taught me, but I think that sort of unique blend actually of geography, design, and industry and real-world experiences has formed all of the stuff that I now do, and it helps me to think differently.

Adrian Tennant: You’re currently the regenerative futures lecturer at the Glasgow School of Art. Now, can you define regenerative futures and tell us a bit about your role at the school?

Gabby Morris: Yeah, so regenerative design and regenerative futures has been around for quite some time now and lots of people are sort of talking about it and I guess it’s the new sustainable design really. But for me it’s about rebuilding that relationship that we have with the planet and thinking in whole systems. One of the things that I see all the time in design is how we might focus on one side of it. You know, we might look at food or we might look at health or we’ll design a bit of something around the economy here but we won’t necessarily think about it in systems. Regenerative futures for me is really thinking about that balance so that you know the economy, society, and the environment in balance. I think designing a way that the future focuses on what we can do to go beyond sustainability but think about how we might reverse some of the harm that we’ve done but not in a shameful way, you know, building upon the existing successes that we’ve had, creating new systems that kind of restore ecosystems, and communities, and the economy. I think sustainability for me kind of minimizes resources used, but actually regenerative design can look at existing materials, making them more efficient, producing outputs with higher value add to them, thinking about the future in a way that’s sort of hopeful and optimistic and full of possibilities to make changes and consider ways that actually we could absolutely thrive, you know, the future could be a thriving one. And also regenerative futures looks at sort of new economic models as well, which I think are quite interesting. So thinking about more ecological, social models. You know, our traditional economic models, they often fail to sort of measure and forecast the sort of chaos that we often live in. The positive and the negative outcomes from human activities. They focus on GDP, but actually things like regenerative donut economics, you know, Kate Raworth‘s work that some of your listeners might be familiar with, uses much more kind of integrated social, ecological, economic factors that really can predict these difficult, complex patterns and support economic growth, I think. So I’m really excited by regenerative futures, I guess, because it really does feel hopeful. It feels optimistic. Here at the School of Art, I embed some of that thinking into what we do, but I also teach an elective, so our students here are postgraduate students and they’re learning design innovation, principally, and then they can take different modules, or my elective, which is around sort of food systems and regenerative food systems and the kind of things that are linked into that. So communities, economies, food, all of that sort of stuff. This year we’re focusing on venison actually, as a really interesting concept in Scotland around sort of biodiversity and net zero, and thinking about how we might develop regenerative futures that focus on using a net zero meat to restore and rewild areas in Scotland, then focusing on how we might actually create local and regional food systems from that. So I think for me, regenerative futures is just this kind of really exciting experimental exploration of what we could do next that’s really, yeah, it could be really great.

Adrian Tennant: Well, you mentioned that you’re currently working mostly with postgraduate students. I’m curious, what role do you believe education should play in shaping the designers of tomorrow?

Gabby Morris: One of the things that I focus on with my students a lot is the power of design. If you look around you, I think we can all tell what is good and bad. Design or the lack of it is everywhere. I think getting designers and getting our graduates, whether they’re in a design degree or whether they’re doing something else, to think about the power in what we make and what we create and how we consider the materiality, the relationship that people have to it, the experience that people have with it, I think is really important. Along with that really comes this idea of hospicing or end-of-life for products and services and experiences. Going beyond delivery is something that I talk about a lot here. So, if you’re creating something, what happens to it when it inevitably ends? We don’t talk about that enough in design and I think, shaping designers of tomorrow to think about that is something that we really need to consider. I guess the other key things for me is optimism and responsibility. Creative thinking is probably one of the most important things for the next decade, two decades of our planet, really, and we don’t value it enough. We don’t value the kind of skills that our students have. We don’t value the fact that designers are able to sort of look at things differently. Often, you know, creative solutions, systems thinking, connecting, zooming in and out, resilience, all of those things that I think you have if you go through a design education are going to be really important. It is important right now, but it’s also going to be important as we go through the next sort of phase of our planet. I think feeling is really important in all of that as well. We design a lot with logic and what I try to get my students to do. The last one is something I call feeling provoking design, which is really getting people to consider how it might feel. How does the future feel? How does this scenario feel? And how might we provoke people to feel something before they think about it? So for me, all of those kinds of key things really help to shape designers and education is such an important part of that. I obviously studied at the School of Art as well so I’ve gone through this education, but I also think we have resilience built into what we do. Our curriculum here is made to allow students to fail and get back up, iterate and experiment. I remember someone saying once that they really like hiring students from the School of Art because if you drop them from a height, they’ll land on their feet. And I think that is probably the greatest example of the fact that we go through this education. You’re learning so much about how you might create things that don’t work, but then how do you work that out? You might, um, yeah, fail and fail and fail until you find something that works and I think that’s what we need for the future.

Adrian Tennant: Professionally, your areas of focus include rural futures and ecologies, food system transition, and soil futures. Could you describe some of the projects you’ve undertaken exploring these areas? 

Gabby Morris: Yeah, one of the biggest projects I’ve probably done focusing on soil is Dish the Dirt. And it’s one that I talk about a lot, but it’s probably the one that I’ve enjoyed the most as well in terms of the impact that it’s had and also the sort of principles behind it. So, through research, I realized that lots of people don’t think about where their food comes from and they don’t relate food to soil and why we eat food from soil, and what that relationship is. And so Dish the Dirt is actually a dining experience that I’ve run, I think about 18 times now. And it actually gets people to eat different types of food alongside. So you might eat regenerative organic food alongside supermarket food in the same dish with small plates, but actually the table is entirely covered in soil. The plates are made from ceramics and I’ve made each plate to be different, and there’s lots of sensory engagement in that. So there’s sounds of farmers talking about the issues around farming and agriculture. There are sensory engagements in terms of the sort of smell of soil and you eat certain dishes at certain times and actually there’s one that’s the sort of final plate, there’s this idea that soil should be like chocolate cake and so it’s this chocolate cake dessert, but it’s in a ceramic bowl that kind of sounds like a plant pot and it’s actually set into soil, so people eating this very experientially. That’s one of the projects I’ve done that I think I find the most exciting still and the impact of that has been pretty huge. You know, we run it for the World Congress of British Soil Science, we’ve had soil scientists eat these dishes and also coming up at the end and saying, “I never thought about soil and food, but I’m going to now” and that’s, you know, that’s people whose daily role is thinking about the science of soil. It’s changed the way people eat. We’ve had people say that they’ve made massive decisions to change the way they cook and the way they source food and so it’s had a lot of impact. I think actually this was designed in 2022, in some ways it was slightly ahead of its time. It’s becoming more of a thing now, but that’s probably one of my most favorite projects. In terms of other projects that I’m doing, one of the projects I’m doing around, sort of rural futures is a concept around sort of youth futures and how young people envisage rural areas and what they want to see in places like Forres, where I live, which is quite small and lots of young people leave and they might return in their sort of 40s and 50s, but actually getting young people to imagine the future if they stayed or what they would need to stay in these areas is really important and really interesting. One of the other projects that I’m focusing on this year is looking more at food systems and actually reimagining here in the UK. We have a magazine called the Farmers Weekly, and it’s got everything from the politics of farming to the sales of livestock to letters that have been written in by farmers and people and all that sort of stuff. And I’m looking at reimagining that, this year, for 10 years time. So actually, what will the conversations be and you know, that’s a really interesting piece of design fiction and it comes from all the learnings that I’ve had in that world. But thinking about what farmers might be saying, what the politics at the time might be, what does the UK farming industry look like in 10 years time?

Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be right back after this message. 


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Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. I’m talking with Gabby Morris, an award-winning regenerative designer and futurist. Gabby, you also designed an immersive experience called Solarpunk Futures. For anyone unfamiliar with the term Solarpunk, could you explain what it is? 

Gabby Morris: Yeah, so Solarpunk is the opposite really of Cyberpunk. So it’s the opposite to the sort of dystopian technology movement. And it’s really unapologetically optimistic. So obviously, it absolutely fits with how I feel, but it’s a vision for the future that sort of focuses on radical societal structures, harmony with the planet, and this great phrase that I love of, “What if we got it right?” You know, what if we consider that the things that we do, we get right. It is a design; it’s an artistic movement as well, but it sort of envisages the future in this radical, interconnected, interesting way that really helps people to think about how we might adopt ideas for the future, how we might use technology in that, how we might make repairable things, how we might build things to last, how we might think about what we’ve already got and utilize it. And so that, for me, is Solarpunk, and obviously, there’s friction in that. It’s not utopian, but it’s not dystopian either. It’s really pushing the boundaries of: “What can we do to get this right? We know that we’ve got problems. We know that we have to make changes. But what if we’re not doom and gloom about that? What if actually, we’re thinking about that in terms of a healthier mindset?”

Adrian Tennant: What did the participants in your Solarpunk Futures event experience?

Gabby Morris: The Solarpunk Island project I did was a part of this brilliant organization in Scotland called Daydream Believers, and they’re embedding creative education in Scotland. So for context, for your listeners, Scottish children are over-examined – they’re the most over-examined kids in Europe. Daydreamers are embedding creativity into the curriculum and looking at that, not just from the art class, but how does that work in a French language class? How does that work in math and science? You know, we’ve got schools now in Scotland running this across the whole thing. So the Solarpunk Futures event that I created was really taking that educational curriculum that they’ve designed and turning it into this experiential, immersive game for the teachers who teach it, and for Educating Scotland, who are the people that write policy around Scottish education; we’ve run two of them. So the first one we did up here on the campus, and people think they’re coming to a conference. They think they’re coming along, they get a tote bag and a notebook, and they think they’re going to be talked to for a day. Then we stage a boat crash [laughs], and actually, the last one I did was on a boat [laughs], so that was quite interesting. There was a lot of, um, that was really experiential. But we stage a boat crash, and then they are given a persona, so they have to become someone else, and that’s sort of related to maybe their subject that they do as a teacher. They’re given resources, so they have finite resources, with the Solarpunk ethos that we won’t have everything in abundance. They’re given a different island, and they have to build a 15-minute city of the future on that island, and so everything that they experience is how you might do that if Solarpunk were to become the present day. And so they have to use their resources, use their skills, work with each other to design this 15-minute city. As part of that experience, I designed two food events as well, using sort of design fiction methodologies but actually bringing them to life in terms of a food. So they have one lunch and one dinner. The lunch is all food that’s related to foraging. You’ve just come onto this island and it’s not that abundant and you’re eating different food in a sort of canteen format and then the dinner is this punk restaurant of the future where these cities are thriving and actually what could that food look like? And that’s really exciting to me as well because you’re getting people to think about the future of food in that as well. So yeah. These, yeah, teachers and policy makers come along and the boat one we ran, they actually were on this canal boat and they, yeah, come up with these incredible ideas in the same way that the kids that go through this curriculum might do. But it’s a great way, actually, instead of us just showing them lots of slides and lectures around how great this has been for the children that go through this program. We throw them into it and they experience it and they have to really feel it tangibly and make it. That’s really interesting.

Adrian Tennant: What do you see as the impact of these types of events?

Gabby Morris: I honestly believe that these methodologies can be used to focus on quite complex ways of thinking. You know, I’ve seen in the impact of my work that actually using these methodologies has really had an impact on how people think about things, or how people engage with things or change their mind about things. I think that Solarpunk event that I talked about, the one that we did on the boat, was a great example of that because, Educating Scotland, those people are policymakers, they’re not necessarily designers, they’re quite logical thinkers, they’re quite set in policy, and yet they came to this event and just saw the power of thinking differently and creativity and I think you can take something quite serious and quite complex and use these methods to make it really engaging and interesting, and not just a workshop. I think we’re doing a post-workshop. Where you just get people to sit in a room with post-it notes and brainstorm ideas about things that you ask them. I hope we post-workshop.

Adrian Tennant: Well, I mentioned in the introduction that you launched a Kickstarter last year called Grounded Wisdom, which attracted a lot of attention and almost seven times the amount you required to fund it. Uh, Gabby, can you tell us what Grounded Wisdom is? And what inspired you to develop the project?

Gabby Morris: Yeah, so it’s still weird actually to hear that. But yeah, um, Grounded Wisdom is, first and foremost a design card deck looking at regenerative design, but it’s based on the principles of tarot. And I know that sounds a bit out there, but actually tarot’s connection to the earth and to soil and to regeneration is really interesting when you sort of dig into it.

Grounded Wisdom really focuses on soil and regeneration and design, and so every card has a provocation to designers who would use this deck, and that provocation is a regenerative design question, or a question about soil, but every card has a sort of before, beginning, middle, and end of a project. So you might be starting a project and thinking about what you might do, and you might use the deck to do that. You might be thinking about that end-of-life element that I talked about earlier, and you might use the deck to provoke thought around that. Because soil is this incredible biological system that has a beginning, it has a middle, and it has an end. You know, because things die, you can compost things, there’s decomposition, but there’s germination and seed growing, and all of these amazing metaphors that actually we should be thinking about when we’re thinking about design. And instead of thinking about a sort of mechanistic way of designing or thinking about the world, having these kinds of biological, ecosystem based things is great for setting out a design project. It can also be used as a tarot deck. And actually, quite a few of the people that backed the Kickstarter are tarot readers. And I think that’s interesting in itself because tarot is becoming this bigger thing and people are looking for meanings and rituals and guidance in that. But actually, Grounded Wisdom’s deck is entirely based on the soil, and I think even just having people who are not designers but love the deck for its look, or love the deck because they’re tarot readers, they’re connecting to the soil and connecting to regenerative design in some way. And lots of people have said that they never thought about soil before they purchased the deck. That’s a huge win for me and a huge win, I think, for our collective future, because actually just imagining soil being a bigger topic in people’s lives is great. I guess why I designed it was because I started to get fascinated in that world of ritual and that world of soil. I remember when I was a kid, my mum had this tarot deck, and actually it turns out she still has it, I didn’t realize, but she had this tarot deck, and she would read people’s tarot. This sort of ritualistic kind of getting it out, it was in a certain cloth, and I just started to sort of explore that slow relationship, I guess, with an object. And then, I started to design it, and I was asked by a great organization in the Netherlands, called the BioArt Lab, if I would show a piece of work at Dutch Design Week. So I’d done Dutch Design Week the year before and they rang me up and said, “do you have something to show?’ And I was like, “well, I’ve kind of got this soil deck that I’m thinking about creating.” And so that really forced me I guess for it to not be just this experimental side project but to become something that actually I showed at Dutch Design Week and that ultimately led to the Kickstarter. I don’t think I would have ever done a Kickstarter for it if it hadn’t been shown there. People were really interested in it and really engaged in it. I originally did the Kickstarter just to print a hundred cards, and I remember the sort of first 20 minutes where it pretty much got to nearly 80 percent, and I was just, you know, bowled over really, and I think I still am. 

Adrian Tennant: Gabby, it sounds like the level of interest in your Kickstarter did surprise you, have you faced any challenges in the product’s manufacturing or distribution?

Gabby Morris: I mean, being one person is a challenge. Um, but I think actually one of the things that I’ve had to consider in this is the cards themselves. So holding myself accountable to my own ideas, I guess that actually these cards need to be sustainably made. They need to be printed in a way that they have an end-of-life. And so actually finding, and I’ve got a great British manufacturer actually, but finding someone who can do that has been really interesting because it’s quite tempting, I think, to go for a much cheaper option that is, easier to create, but actually for me, if I’m creating a regenerative product, it has to be a regenerative product and so that’s maybe been the most challenging element.

Adrian Tennant: Now, based on this experience, do you foresee more Kickstarters in your future?

Gabby Morris: Yeah, so I do, I’m working on a project at the moment, which is called Food Waste Warriors, and that is a sort of food system, food waste game, that hopefully we’ll make it onto a Kickstarter either this year or early into next year. That really focuses on getting people to think about how we deal with the food system and deal with some of the problems with the food system, but in an interesting and exciting way.

I think one of the things that I love is, and it came out in the Solarpunk stuff, and it features in most of my work is getting people to think about stuff, but not in a sort of dull, uninteresting way, but in maybe a game or an exciting experience or something that’s beautiful and delightful. And so that’s what I’m focusing on at the moment. you know, I’d love to make more design cards. I think sometimes there’s just not enough time for all the ideas.

Adrian Tennant: What advice would you give to any designers or brand marketers listening to this who may be interested in learning more about design fiction and sustainability? 

Gabby Morris: Design fiction has been such an interesting thing for me, and it’s not something that I actually even learned on my course. It was meeting Julian [Bleeker], who I think you’ve had on your podcast, and being part of the Near Future Lab, and immersing myself in that world has been, it’s been really interesting because design fiction is such a brilliant way to create visions of the possible futures that aren’t just like mock ups or like beautiful sort of displays of things, but they’re actually physical, tangible things. And I, that normal, ordinary kind of element, you know, when I think about like the Farmers Weekly, for instance, just that sitting on someone’s sideboard in 10 years time inside a farm is really interesting and someone picking that up today and looking at what that looks like. And I think if people are interested in that, try it and embed those ideas into everything we do. There’s no reason that you can’t write, instead of writing a policy document, that you couldn’t create a magazine of the future. Or instead of showing an exhibition, at the moment, the UK is fascinated with Town Centre Regeneration and I find myself going into so many sort of doll exhibitions that are lots of posters of architectural drawings, but actually, why can’t that be experiential? Why couldn’t that be products of the future, places, conversations? I think actually if you are a brand marketer or a designer or even just someone that actually writes policy or thinks about these things, you know, imagining doing this stuff and trying it, I think is really important. I’m doing a project at the moment in the south of Scotland where we’re getting people to think about their relationship to the coast. So their environmental relationship with salt marshes that we have here, with the wildlife that we have here, but also the human things that we might want to create. Instead of a workshop with post-it notes, they are thrown into a future, and so they become these custodians of the future, and they have to make decisions. So we’ve actually created these fictional planning applications, and design fiction is the foundation of this, where people have to make those decisions now, but as though they’re doing it in 10, 20 years time. But they can physically see what those planning applications might look like. They can read them, they can engage with them. I think just getting into that mindset is a great way of sort of getting into this interest and making it about feeling and not just being really logical about it. And there’s some great resources online. I mean, Julian’s podcast is brilliant for it. Come and join the Discord. It’s a great place for this stuff and I’ve learned so much from it, but just experimenting is something that I think more and more we have to do.

Adrian Tennant: Gabby, what’s next for you?

Gabby Morris: I’m actually leaving my role, so I’m leaving my role at the School of Art. It’s been a brilliant experience, but I’ve been doing lots of these projects and running sort of my own studio. So that’s going full time and I’m excited actually to take that leap and to sort of push these things forward and be entirely creative and so I’m exploring lots of ways that we can think about the future in places that we don’t normally think about them, hoping to work with people, not just in the UK, but around the world, who might not be using these kind of methodologies and can, you know, embedding that experiential, immersive, design fiction kind of future into what, what we do. So yeah, I’m focusing on that and then focusing on quite a lot of different projects.

Adrian Tennant: Super exciting. Gabby, if IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners would like to learn more about you, your educational work, or your projects, including Grounded Wisdom, what’s the best way to do so?

Gabby Morris: I have a website, Adrian, so they can have a look at my website. I have all the sort of online socials that we all have. And I usually show my work at Dutch Design Week every year, and if people are interested in experimental, interesting design, I would absolutely suggest going and looking at that. So yeah.

Adrian Tennant: Gabby, thank you very much for being our guest on IN CLEAR FOCUS.

Gabby Morris: Thank you for having me. It’s been very fun.

Adrian Tennant: Thanks again to my guest this week, Gabby Morris, an award-winning regenerative designer and futurist. As always, you’ll find a full transcript of our conversation and links to the resources we discussed on the BigEye website at Just select Insights from the menu. Thank you for listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week, goodbye.

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