Expert Dave Kaye talks about his love for qualitative research. Dave discusses his mobile-based ethnographic research platform, Field Notes, which allows researchers to capture consumers’ lives through their smartphones using video, photos, text, and screen recording features. We also explore some case studies and talk about how Dave’s business, Peek Content, guarantees high-quality videos for clients seeking to gain a deep understanding of people’s lives and behaviors.
Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS.
Dave Kaye: When it comes to ethnography, It’s all about seeing and hearing what people do and what they say. What we do with smartphone ethnography, we are learning about people, we’re seeing how they behave and what they do, but we are using the smartphone to access them in their world.
Adrian Tennant: You are listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising produced weekly by Bigeye: a strategy-led, full-service creative agency, growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us. By understanding consumers’ behavior and motivations, product and service brands can develop relevant and effective marketing strategies that resonate with their target audiences. In commercial market research, a method that can help us achieve deep consumer insights is ethnography. Like anthropologists, ethnographers are interested in understanding the cultural, social, and psychological factors influencing people’s decisions and actions. While anthropologists may study different cultures and societies, ethnographic market research typically focuses on specific audiences or customer segments. It’s an approach that can yield unexpected insights into consumers’ needs, preferences, and pain points, which surveys and focus groups can miss. Our guest today is Dave Kaye, an ethnographic research expert who’s traveled the world observing and hearing firsthand accounts from hundreds of participants. A pioneer in mobile phone-based research, Dave founded Kiosk, the world’s first mobile qualitative agency, and as you’ll hear, Dave is passionate about incorporating new technologies into research, But in ways that keep things simple and accessible for participants. To discuss his research career and some of the tools and techniques of ethnographic research used to yield consumer insights, Dave is joining us today from Isleworth, West London, England. Dave, welcome to IN CLEAR FOCUS!
Dave Kaye: Adrian, thank you for having It’s a real pleasure to have the opportunity to chat today.
Adrian Tennant: Well, Dave, as I mentioned in the intro, you’ve worked in the market research industry for quite a while. how did you enter the profession?
Dave Kaye: Yes, it’s been around 20 years now. As they say, time flies. I discovered the world of market research because I loved languages and I loved travel. I did French and Italian at university, ended up living in Japan after that. So I was fluent in a few languages. I ended up responding to, believe it or not, an actual newspaper advertisement for a company called Flamingo that was looking for people who could speak more than one language fluently, who lived abroad and were interested in culture. And I so I ticked all the boxes. So I applied for that, and before I knew it, I found myself working in international market research. And a key criteria thing for the hire was that I had that international experience, a real curiosity for people, for culture. And, yeah I sort of found myself doing that job without knowing the actual profession existed. So I do know what it’s about now. It’s been 20 years, so I’ve got a good understanding of the industry and everything within it.
Adrian Tennant: Well, over the course of your career, you’ve focused on qualitative rather than quantitative research. So what is it about qualitative that’s kept you engaged for over two decades?
Dave Kaye: Yeah, great question. I think, one, I love people, talking to them, and obviously, that’s at the heart of qualitative research. But also, I think the other thing about it is that if you work in the qualitative industry, you are going to learn a lot of little things, and you’re going to get a glimpse into not just people’s lives, but you’re going to get a glimpse into different industries, different products. You’ll learn a lot. You’ll be working one week on, potentially, a new product or a new bit of technology that gets you excited. In the next week, you might be finding out about a rare disease or a condition that people live with and how it impacts their ability to do something. So one of the things that have kept me interested is the fact that you are endlessly sort of learning stuff, not just about the trade and the industry, but also about people and, and new things, which fundamentally means that you are quite good at pub quizzes, I guess. And generally, are able to sort of have a conversation with people about pretty much anything. And I’ve always liked that. I like the fact that you’ve got a huge, wide spread of the world to cover when it comes to qualitative, and that’s always kept me really interested.
Adrian Tennant: Today, you lead the mobile-based ethnographic research platform, Field Notes. For anyone starting out in research or strategy, could you give us an overview of its practical applications?
Dave Kaye: Yeah, sure. So I guess when it comes to ethnography, it’s all about seeing and hearing what people do and what they say. And the reality of it is, if you were to talk to a university professor about ethnography and how to do it, you’d get quite a different answer than talking to me. Because in its purest form, you’re spending time with people observing them, ideally in the same sort of environment as them. So watching them, hearing them, listening to them, never asking questions, and essentially, just understanding the world. Now that’s great. And pure ethnography obviously exists, and some brands do commit to it. Costs a huge amount of money to do those kinds of projects. I don’t imagine it’s the easiest sell-in, because you’re asking people to give up a lot of their time, and you’re asking for trained professionals to spend a lot of their time being with them. What we do with smartphone ethnography is, I still think very true to the discipline in that we are learning about people, we’re seeing how they behave, and what they do, but we are using the smartphone to access them in their world. You know, the constraints of the industry in research mean you have to get projects done in much shorter periods of time. Quite often, we’re in field for a week, maybe two weeks. You are connecting with people during that period. They’re telling you their stories, you are hearing them. You are seeing them and lots of different ways to set up a project, which means that people can be very natural on camera. And you’re also able to access everything that is on their phone because they’ve given you permission to do so. So you’re asking them to share photos, images, videos that they’ve created already, which are very natural and very personal to them. And you’re essentially accessing their world through the most personal device that exists, which is their smartphone. So everything’s on there, and it allows you to get to know them in a really powerful way. So, with smartphone ethnography, you’re getting to the very heart of who these people are and the way that they’re sort of represented, and they can share with you a ton of stuff that you wouldn’t get otherwise. So you are essentially accessing their world through the most personal device that’s there. And as I say, sometimes you’re watching them, sometimes you’re listening to them, and sometimes you’re asking them to share with you images or videos that already exist. So you’ve got a really good sense of who they are.
Adrian Tennant: Dave, what’s the story behind the founding of Field Notes?
Dave Kaye: Field Notes has been around now for over a decade, I think around 11 years now it’s existed as a platform and a service. And it was first built, when I was actually at that business I mentioned earlier, Flamingo, where I was Head of Digital. And in that role, I was very excited by smartphones and what they could do for the world of research and how to get closer the people. So I went out, put together a business plan to essentially build a technology platform, which is what Field Notes was. And Field Notes was originally built by teams of researchers across different countries because the business itself is very international. So we have researchers from Asia, from South America, North America, Europe, all coming together and sort of brainstorming what a great tool would look like for them to get to know people in the ways we’ve mentioned. And we then went out and, you know, built it with, our technology partners, and ran it internally as a tool. About five years ago, we had the opportunity, due to big restructuring within the business, to actually take Field Notes out and make it an independent business. Field Notes became not just a tool for a limited amount of researchers, but actually then became a platform that was accessible for everyone and the research industry and the creative industries, et cetera. So, it’s something that we’ve been able to develop a lot, it’s gone from being a tool for a smaller group to a bigger group. We’ve brought new features in. We’ve basically worked with lots of different partners, and it’s come from strength to strength by doing that. And we’re still very much international, very much, you know, focused on bringing stories to life where everything might be around the globe. But yeah, it’s one of the longest established out there, and it’s remarkable how much things develop and change over time, but it gives you an opportunity to really get close, which has always been the key target right from day one.
Adrian Tennant: What kinds of features or functions does the platform provide?
Dave Kaye: So at its heart is video. We encourage people to, when they come onto a project, to be themselves, of course, but they download the app onto their phones. And once they do that, they’re given the opportunity to introduce themselves, tell us about who they are. But they’re responding to a number of different assignments over the period of typically one or two weeks. Each of those assignments is task-based. For example, if it’s a project to do with food, they’ll be giving us a kitchen tool. They’ll be opening up their cupboards. They’ll be opening the fridge up for us. We’ll get to see who they are. We’ll get to see where they eat. We might ask ’em to film a breakfast, a lunch, or a dinner for us. and you get to know them through capturing those kinds of moments. Not all of our projects are video-based, but I would say it’s the core component of what we do, and we pride ourselves on providing really high-quality video content. You know, we ask ’em to upload, photos, images, text as well, always in response to what we are looking at. And the app also allows you to have a screen recording functionality where you can see online journeys, whatever they’re doing, whether that’s an online purchase journey. Or you wanna understand how they’re using their socials. That kind of thing as well is easy now to capture. So they just have to click a button to share and screen record for us as well. The thing to say is it’s always one-to-one connection. So we get deeper with individuals rather than connecting with a group. The closer the relationship you build, the better the content is that you generate from people. We’re not just asking people to record a video and send it off into space that never gives you good results. We’re giving them tons of feedback, tons of encouragement, and that’s how we get to know people really well. And that’s why I think it’s a really good tool in that respect, but always one-to-one engagement.
Adrian Tennant: The participants are responding to prompts through a smartphone app. What about the research teams? Are we also working through an app, or are we going to a web-based portal? What does that look like?
Dave Kaye: That side of it’s all web-based. So you basically see all the content coming through from wherever it might be and it lands in your project portal within each task. It’s then fully searchable, and you can tag the content and use the platform to do your analysis. Everything comes in with a transcription. So if it’s video content, it gets transcribed, and you are then able to review the content, and select what you need to tell your story really. But it’s very easy to cover everything to see it. It’s all sort of put together in a very logical way and it’s also very easy to feedback to the participants to get them excited about the project. And then your teams can come in, typically it’s the research team that’s kind of doing the hands-on stuff. But then the end clients have also got another view, which is a bit simplified, where you can just see the core sort of hero content where you can come in and have a look as well. So there are loads of different ways of presenting the content back, but ultimately it all lives there. So, it’s a really convenient and simple way of collecting lots and lots of people’s content and personal stories, et cetera.
Adrian Tennant: Well, Field Notes certainly sounds very versatile in terms of the kinds of projects that you and your clients can undertake. Rachel Lawes is coming on the podcast in a few weeks time to discuss the second edition of her book, Semiotics In Marketing. Does Field Notes support other qual methods like semiotics?
Dave Kaye: Yeah, I’ve not met Rachel, but I’ve heard really good things about her approach, and I’ll be looking forward to reading Semiotics In Marketing as well. We work a lot with semioticians and we work a lot with semiotic specialists, complimenting their work. So quite often we work with semiotic agencies, and one we work with often is it’s an agency called Sign Salad. Dr. Alex Gordon, based here in the UK, working on projects with Alex and his team, we’re essentially helping to see the actual cultural change they’re talking about quite often, or we’re using it to further bring to life sometimes quite sort of big ideas and big concepts. And for the actual end client, not only the agency providing the semiotic thinking, but some actual examples which then sort of anchor it. So in that context, we worked a lot with semiotics to help tell the larger, bigger story and to sort of help bring to life again and identify some of the things that have come out of the semiotic stage. There’s typically a semiotic stage followed by, Field Notes or a mobile ethnography stage. And that’s the way we tend to work with quantitative as well. Whilst you can do small, simple surveys within Field Notes itself, it’s not a quant tool in any sort of significant way. But what it is very, very good at is, using a focused sort of self-ethno to bring to life the segmentation story that a quant agency has written. So they basically discovered who the consumer is for their client. They’ve got pen portraits or pen profiles, but actually, some very focused video capture. Using a tool like this to get closer to that profile is really helpful. So quite often, quant agencies use Field Notes to bring those actual participants to life in the way that they know them. And it just makes a massive difference when you are sort of distributing the segmentation within the business and passing it on to other people. You’ve got some powerful video bring it further to life.
Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be right back after these messages.
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Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. I’m talking with Dave Kaye, an expert in mobile ethnography and the co-founder of the qualitative research platform Field Notes. Those of us involved in consumer research, especially for CPGs, aim to get as close as possible to customers to understand their sequential moments of truth, those interactions with brands that inform or change their opinions. First comes a stimulus, say an advertisement for a product. The first moment of truth is when a customer comes into contact with a product. This term originated with Procter and Gamble in 2005, which described it as the first three to five seconds when a shopper notices a product in a retail environment. The second moment of truth is when the customer has purchased and started using the product and decides for themselves whether their experience supports the brand’s pre-purchase promises. And the third moment of truth is when the customer becomes a true fan and gives back to the brand with consumer-generated content such as product reviews, ratings, or posts on social media. Dave, in what kinds of ways can researchers use Field Notes, to identify and use knowledge about these moments of truth to develop optimal paths to purchase?
Dave Kaye: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think the thing is about self-ethnography, it’s all about moments. You’re actually asking people to capture moments for you all the time. That’s effectively what you’re doing when you’re challenging people or inviting them to take part in tasks. So in each of those parts of the journey, there’s a role for, I feel, self-ethnography, where you can first, find out what those moments are, perhaps by having. your customers giving you a tour, a safari of whatever they’re looking at, they’re taking you out with them to the store. They’re taking you to their favorite locations. They’re showing you what’s interesting to them. So you might actually capture some of those first moments of truth, by doing this kind of work and really get some insights into what’s out there. Likewise, when people have made the purchase. So many of our projects involve that moment – the purchase moment, the point of sale moment. So whilst sometimes you can actually get it in a store, where people are actually capturing the actual, moment itself, you can also, if you don’t manage to do that, you can get the moment straight after. So retrospectives of the journey that they’ve just been on, tell us why you just bought. They can be in the parking lot outside, or they can be in their cars telling you about it, but they’re very close to the moment. So again, the self-ethnography gets you incredibly close to these moments that you are talking about, which are the really key marketing ones. Likewise, we work a lot in healthcare. The holy grail really is the prescription moment in healthcare, and again, with ethnography, whilst you can’t necessarily be there whilst the patient’s in the room, you can be there straight after when the prescription’s been given, when they can report back to you, the healthcare professionals, on what they’ve done, why they’ve done it. That’s as close as you can get to that moment as well. So I think it’s very well aligned. Everything that self-ethnography does with different moments and finally, the third moment of truth, when it comes to advocacy and sort of getting stuff out there, is very similar to what I was just talking about recently. Some of our clients are actually asking us to help them generate sometimes those sort of moments of truth where they’re asking for the consumers to show them the moments they’ve had with their brand, either for a research piece or potentially getting their permissions to then use that content either on social or on the website, et cetera, and that’s really powerful. So kind of thinking, well, actually, you know, what can you do with smartphone ethnography and with these different moments when the reality of it, I would say you can touch all three of those moments you’ve talked through, because at the very heart of it, everything that you capture with Field Notes or with this approach is to do about the moment. And it can be a really valuable tool, I think, across the board, throughout the whole process, and a very visual one, which is what makes it so powerful.
Adrian Tennant: Dave, we’ve talked quite a bit about how Field Notes takes advantage of the mainstream adoption of smartphones, but you also head up another business called Peek Content. Could you tell us a bit about what Peek Content is?
Dave Kaye: Yes. what Peek does is, is quite niche, and we basically specialize in generating really high-quality videos from real people anywhere in the world. Now we do use Field Notes to do that, so it’s our platform for doing it. But if you’re working with Peek Content, then we are, actually, the agency service. So we would recruit people for you, we’d find the right people, and then most importantly, we would give them remote direction and support on how to film. and really the key thing that. are doing is, guaranteeing that you’ll get really good high-quality videos for your, project, whatever your project might be Now, what it then gives you as an end result is really authentic, but high-quality self-shot video, which, is niche, as I say, but that’s what we offer. and the whole reason that the business has come into life is because years of working in market research, I’m just done. I’m finished with seeing badly-shot video. Everyone’s got the highest possible quality cameras, you know, four cameras on their phone, shoot you from every different angle. You can actually put it into the cinema, but yet still people are recording themselves up the nose. Or holding the camera the wrong way around, or have a pet in the background tap dancing on a kitchen floor, which is one of the worst noises to get rid of in any kind of editing. And the video itself is just disappointing when actually it shouldn’t be. The video is incredibly powerful. It’s what you are using to excite your clients, to excite other consumers to do whatever you need to do with it. And there’s no reason why it isn’t really high-quality video, and that’s what we guarantee. Our manifesto is to rid the world of poor-quality smartphone video content. And, you know, that’s what we try and do. That might mean stopping or asking them not to film in portrait mode and film and landscape. It’s thinking about lighting behind them. It’s thinking about audio levels. It’s thinking about what they’re wearing to a certain extent, but actually, it’s still authentic and real when they talk to us because they’re talking about things that are their own stories. We’re just giving them the tools to better film themselves and to better capture the moment for us.
Adrian Tennant: Dave, how do clients typically engage with Peek Content?
Dave Kaye: So quite often, it’s through word of mouth. We’ve got a client who’s come across us because they’ve started asking around because actually, there is a need for high-quality video because if you’ve spent, you know, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on your segmentation study, and it’s being let down cause you’ve just got very poor video clips bringing it to life, why not spend a little bit more? It’s a fraction of what you would be spending otherwise to really do it justice. So the clients that will commission us, and they, these do tend to be end clients rather than agencies that we, we work with both, but it tends to be clients who value, high-quality video, when they show it in the boardroom. And they also like the fact that they got a lot of control over the process. So when we did a recruitment, we are recruiting to a very strict brief. We’re looking at, quite often, a recruit that is designed to illustrate research findings or a research story rather than discover new insights. It’s about right from the start bringing those insights to life and capturing them. So people have been recruited in a particular way, they might be agreeing already to certain statements They’ve been selected to participate in the research. But again, they’re real people, and clients want to, bring that story to life within their organization. So when they commission us, they ask us how do we do it. How do we go about that? And we’ve got lots of processes that kind of help guarantee the quality of the video and the story. But the fact that we come from a world of research and there’s been, you know, 20 years of qualitative expertise behind it, we know how to tease out what the main story is, to work closely with the partners to bring it all to life and essentially make sure that the end piece is what’s needed.
Adrian Tennant: Well, we always like practical examples. So Dave, could you give us a real-life example of Peek Content’s role in a client initiative?
Dave Kaye: Yes. So as a leading bank here in the UK, so a high street bank or one of the big boys, so to speak, that commissioned us to bring to life their segmentation. So they have 12 different segments who are all very different, and key to them and important to them. And each of those segments is important, within the broader, bigger business. So again, this is one of the clients that spend a lot of money on a segmentation study, with the quant numbers, and then came to us to bring those numbers to life. And we have developed for them, two edits actually. One is a five-minute edit, which tells the story, of those participants, and of those segments. Where they live. They show us around their homes. They tell us about their anxieties around finance or tell us about what their hopes and aspirations are for the future. A whole story around each of them, and a five-minute edit, and then a one-minute edit. And all of that content then lives on the internal exchange for the business. So they’ve got, in the UK probably about 12,000 people accessing that, looking at the videos and hearing the stories of their actual, real-life stories of their segments and the profiles they’ve been bringing to life. So for them, it’s been very much about giving access to their marketing teams, their sales teams, everybody within the organization so they can actually hear real stories of who they are. So that’s one nice example. Otherwise, we’ve again done quite a lot of content production for clients where it’s been used across social media. So working with one healthcare client where we’ve been talking about dentures, and people have been telling us that if you are actually in the process of losing your teeth, you won’t be very happy about it. And the reality of it is it’s a very stressful time. However, if you actually go as far as to go then and have your dentures put in, then your life changes massively. You can smile with confidence. You can whistle. You can eat steak. You can kiss your partner. You can speak with confidence in a client meeting. Lots of really positive things happen. So we were engaged in creating real testimonial stories for our client to then go online on YouTube, where they could then see the other stories of people that have had their dentures put in, which is just incredible. And actually, in healthcare, we’ve done quite a few things like that where during coronavirus as well, we were doing a lot of work with a number of different brands encouraging people to still go in for their checkups and for, in some cases during the pandemic, finding real people, real patients, hearing their stories. And when those stories were useful to then distribute to other patients – that kind of reassurance from those similar to them is really powerful. So again, lots of content that’s gone on to live outside of the research world to kind of encourage people to do certain things.
Adrian Tennant: Dave, your wife is American, and I know you cross the pond regularly. What are some of the main differences you see between US-based brands’ approaches or attitudes toward research compared to your UK and European clients?
Dave Kaye: Yes. I, I love my wife. I love America as well, to be honest with you, when it comes to the attitudes that the US clients tend to have. So mean, it’s great. I’m based in London. I have great clients here, but what I always love about the US is there’s a sense of adventure from the clients around new methodologies and new approaches. So I think what you tend to see is more of a desire to explore and to try things out. So, quite often in the UK, you might have a more cautious approach. And I think, to be honest with you, the pandemic changed a lot of things. I think mobile ethnography or smartphone ethnography is much less unusual than it used to be. But pre-pandemic, I think there was still a bit of caution. It still felt quite new. I think in the US when clients hear about it and they like the sound of it, they’re much more likely to push the button and give it a go. So maybe not, you know, a huge project, first time round, but they want to dip their toes in the water. They want to experience it. So generally, I would say there’s a desire and a passion for exploring new approaches in the US, which I really appreciate. And then I would also say that in the US, you’re more likely to come across client insight teams that are doing their own research. I think that’s quite exciting and quite different to the way it is in the UK, where it’s usually an agency involved.
Adrian Tennant: New artificial intelligence-based tools are popping up in consumer research, most commonly in the context of question generation and coding of quantitative survey open-ends and qualitative transcripts. Dave, do you foresee AI playing a greater role in the design, collection, and delivery of qualitative insights?
Dave Kaye: Yeah, again, it’s a question which is on everyone’s lips at the moment, I suppose, but it’s definitely making an impact in online, smartphone, qualitative. I can answer this question by basically saying what impact it’s already had for us as a platform. So, you know, we are still very early days of all of this and OpenAI’s ChatGPT has already impacted the way we do things. So, at the end of this month, we’re actually changing our transcription service completely, and moving it to an AI-driven transcription service, which is called Whisper. And we’re very excited going into that and working with them. And basically, the quality of the output that we’ve seen, and we’ve already got it on our staging server, is phenomenal. It makes a massive difference. You’re looking at it, and you are sadly, questioning whether transcription agencies are going to not have a hard time of it in the near future. Human transcription has always been a massive role in research, but as this technology’s improved, you’ve got away with not using human transcription on a few. What we’re seeing now is that level of, transcription is becoming phenomenal. That’s also true of, translation. So you know, whenever I talk and give tips on how to run an international, smartphone qualitative project, I always say, “Don’t get burned by translation because you’re not sure how much you’re going to have, how much it’s going to cost. It spirals outta control. That’s where the hole is when it comes to, managing it.” And the improvement in transcription is allowing for, I think, really cost-effective translation to come on the horizon. And I don’t think that’s going to be as good it’s a harder thing to essentially deliver, but it is still giving you, a massive opportunity. I mean, it’ll mean massive, massive differences in transcription and translation. We’re already seeing it in our business. And then finally, the other thing that’s already happening within our business is once you’ve got all of that AI-driven transcription, in place, you can then start to begin to ask the tools to provide you with summaries of the actual content. So you are looking at, say 10, 15 minutes of video from a participant, which as a researcher, would take you 10, 15 minutes to go through and then take notes, understand it. Take time on it. And now the click of a button, you can have a summary there of 200 words or whatever, bringing to life, you know, in written text, exactly what happens in that video. And the quality of that – people say, you know, “How good is it? How effective is it?” I think the best way of thinking about it is, it’s like having an extra junior team member, working with you for somebody who needs support, somebody who needs to have a little bit of supervision in terms of what the output looks like, but fundamentally, is doing a really good job getting through it. And that, if you think of the man-hours when it comes to like going through all the content, it’s going to save a huge amount of time. So, it’s going to go way beyond that, I think. But just in the last three months, those are the developments we’ve seen on our own platform, and I think it’s a really exciting time. I think people are going to work differently. New jobs will be created when it comes to analyzing the content, and understanding what best to do with the AI. So I think it will evolve and it will change. We’ve already seen that. I think just technology has changed the role of research, but it’s made it much more accessible to a lot of people.
Adrian Tennant: Dave, if IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners would like to know more about you, Field Notes, or Peek Content, where can they find you?
Dave Kaye: So you can come find us at FieldNotesCommunities.com, or likewise also if you’re interested in Peek, PeekContent.com. And I’m on LinkedIn. I’m pretty active on there, so if people wanna drop me a line, look for Dave Kaye, K-A-Y-E, and one of those two businesses you’ll be able to find me there as well.
Adrian Tennant: And we’ll be sure to include links in the transcript for this episode. Dave, thank you very much for being our guest this week on IN CLEAR FOCUS.
Dave Kaye: Thank you so much for your time, Adrian. I really enjoyed chatting.
Adrian Tennant: Thanks to this week’s guest, Dave Kaye of Field Notes and Peek Content. You’ll find a transcript of this episode with links to the resources we discussed today on the IN CLEAR FOCUS page at Bigeye agency.com. Just select podcast from the menu. And if you enjoyed this episode, please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for joining us for IN CLEAR FOCUS, produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tenant. Until next week, goodbye.